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Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 14th, 2013, 10:00 am
by MalkuthSamanera1
How far is it possible to reconcile Gaia Theory with Selfish Gene Theory and what implications does the discussion have for the relations between individuals and society?

Gaia theory was first proposed by James Lovelock, and I believe also goes under another name, something like Earth Systems Science. Selfish Gene Theory has a big proponent in Richard Dawkins.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 14th, 2013, 3:35 pm
by A Poster He or I
Gaia certainly qualifies as a holistic phenomenon, so it readily subsumes selfish gene theory in principle. Selfish genes ARE Gaia in operation, manifesting her intentions for the long-term procreation of species.

I'll pass on commenting about social implications. That's more for the ethics forum, in my opinion.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 15th, 2013, 6:04 am
by MalkuthSamanera1
Thanks, that was a good concise response. Nevertheless, shouldn't we add that selfish genes retain some selfishness and in so doing shape Gaia as much as She shapes them? In other words it is what is known as a co-creative relationship.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 18th, 2013, 12:25 pm
by DoctorEuthanasia
As most genes are mutualistic with Gaia in the long term, we can conclude that the only TRULY selfish genes are those of cancer. For example, a gene inevitably fixed against the natural order is indeed selfish while a gene able to bennefit the greater good of the order in the long term is not. Keep in mind that short term cases of genetic selfishness may arise in all genes tend to be cancelled out by long term averages.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 20th, 2013, 7:49 pm
by MalkuthSamanera1
I consider the above, but is it still not posible for any gene to be 'truly selfish' and still a part of Gaia? For sake of argument, the only way I can postulate it is by writing that a gene 'enjoys the protection of Gaia for selfish reasons', or 'Gaia only arises on the mutual agreement of self-serving genes'.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 22nd, 2013, 6:19 am
by Teh
MalkuthSamanera1 wrote:How far is it possible to reconcile Gaia Theory with Selfish Gene Theory and what implications does the discussion have for the relations between individuals and society?

Gaia theory was first proposed by James Lovelock, and I believe also goes under another name, something like Earth Systems Science. Selfish Gene Theory has a big proponent in Richard Dawkins.
It's not possible to reconcile Gaia "theory" with evolutionary biology. Gaia "theory" isn't even a theory, and it's debatable whether it can be called "science". It doesn't explain anything and it doesn't predict anything.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 22nd, 2013, 2:48 pm
by A Poster He or I
It's not possible to reconcile Gaia "theory" with evolutionary biology. Gaia "theory" isn't even a theory, and it's debatable whether it can be called "science". It doesn't explain anything and it doesn't predict anything.
This statement is of course reflective of a strictly scientistic viewpoint, consistent with its author's previous posts. Scientism is an attitude best reserved for the laboratory. I am glad that the 2 scientists I actually have acquaintance with are too broadminded, imaginative, and socially adapted to be hemmed in by such a straightjacket. Philosophy of Science is free to consider the findings of science within the cultural metaphors that give those findings application and meaning. Gaia is an excellent metaphor for placing science within a holistic epistemological framework.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 22nd, 2013, 4:20 pm
by Teh
A Poster He or I wrote:
This statement is of course reflective of a strictly scientistic viewpoint, consistent with its author's previous posts. Scientism is an attitude best reserved for the laboratory. I am glad that the 2 scientists I actually have acquaintance with are too broadminded, imaginative, and socially adapted to be hemmed in by such a straightjacket. Philosophy of Science is free to consider the findings of science within the cultural metaphors that give those findings application and meaning. Gaia is an excellent metaphor for placing science within a holistic epistemological framework.
As you say, Gaia is a metaphor, just not a particularly suitable one to apply to reality.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 24th, 2013, 1:15 am
by MalkuthSamanera1
Teh wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


As you say, Gaia is a metaphor, just not a particularly suitable one to apply to reality.
Okay folk, Gaia is useful as metaphor in the way described above, but it is more than this...it is an intuitive representation, from a scientist, which has further led to significant evidence to support hypotheses based on 'Gaia'. I might add that 'The Big Bang' and other key theories in science are useful predictors and orientation points, often intuitively arrived at (ALL scientists use intuition, whether they realise it or not -they are human), but these theories (including 'The Big Bang') cannot be irrefutably proved, nor the science behind them completely explained. Working hypotheses are useful and this is precisely what Gaia is -a working hypothesis. Nevertheless as far as I understand it it provides a useful framework which has led to significant information gathering- -below I have copied and pasted information from Wikipedia. I understand this is not the most credible source, but it is true enough, and I haven't currently got time to search for the more credible sources online -but they are there if you want to look for them, I assure you:



The Gaia hypothesis, also known as Gaia theory or Gaia principle, proposes that organisms interact with their inorganic surroundings on Earth to form a self-regulating, complex system that contributes to maintaining the conditions for life on the planet. Topics of interest include how the biosphere and the evolution of life forms affect the stability of global temperature, ocean salinity, oxygen in the atmosphere and other environmental variables that affect the habitability of Earth.

The hypothesis was formulated by the scientist James Lovelock[1] and co-developed by the microbiologist Lynn Margulis in the 1970s.[2] While early versions of the hypothesis were criticized for being teleological and contradicting principles of natural selection, later refinements have resulted in ideas highlighted by the Gaia Hypothesis being used in disciplines such as geophysiology, Earth system science, biogeochemistry, systems ecology, and climate science.[3][4][5] In 2006, the Geological Society of London awarded Lovelock the Wollaston Medal largely for his work on the Gaia theory.[6]


Gaian hypotheses suggest that organisms co-evolve with their environment: that is, they "influence their abiotic environment, and that environment in turn influences the biota by Darwinian process". Lovelock (1995) gave evidence of this in his second book, showing the evolution from the world of the early thermo-acido-philic and methanogenic bacteria towards the oxygen-enriched atmosphere today that supports more complex life.

The scientifically accepted form of the hypothesis has been called "influential Gaia". It states the biota influence certain aspects of the abiotic world, e.g. temperature and atmosphere. They state the evolution of life and its environment may affect each other. An example is how the activity of photosynthetic bacteria during Precambrian times have completely modified the Earth atmosphere to turn it aerobic, and as such supporting evolution of life (in particular eukaryotic life).

Biologists and Earth scientists usually view the factors that stabilize the characteristics of a period as an undirected emergent property or entelechy of the system; as each individual species pursues its own self-interest, for example, their combined actions may have counterbalancing effects on environmental change. Opponents of this view sometimes reference examples of events that resulted in dramatic change rather than stable equilibrium, such as the conversion of the Earth's atmosphere from a reducing environment to an oxygen-rich one.

Fringe science versions of the hypothesis claim that changes in the biosphere are brought about through the coordination of living organisms and maintain those conditions through homeostasis. In Gaia philosophy, all lifeforms are considered part of one single living planetary being called Gaia. In this view, the atmosphere, the seas and the terrestrial crust would be results of interventions carried out by Gaia through the coevolving diversity of living organisms. However, the Earth as a unit does not match the generally accepted biological criteria for life itself, for example, there is no evidence to suggest that "Gaia" has reproduced. This argument is countered by the fact that mules do not reproduce, yet they are also classified as living.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 24th, 2013, 4:38 am
by Teh
MalkuthSamanera1 wrote:
Okay folk, Gaia is useful as metaphor in the way described above, but it is more than this...it is an intuitive representation, from a scientist, which has further led to significant evidence to support hypotheses based on 'Gaia'. I might add that 'The Big Bang' and other key theories in science are useful predictors and orientation points, often intuitively arrived at (ALL scientists use intuition, whether they realise it or not -they are human), but these theories (including 'The Big Bang') cannot be , nor the science behind them completely explained. Working hypotheses are useful and this is precisely what Gaia is -a working hypothesis. Nevertheless as far as I understand it it provides a useful framework which has led to significant information gathering- -below I have copied and pasted information from Wikipedia. I understand this is not the most credible source, but it is true enough, and I haven't currently got time to search for the more credible sources online -but they are there if you want to look for them, I assure you:
For a start, there is no such thing as a scientific theory that can be "irrefutably proved". However successful theories not only explain reality, but often make predictions that are directly testable. For example big-bang theory predicted the cosmic microwave background long before the CMB was observed. Big-bang theory is now almost synonymous with quantum gravity, has lead to a great number of discoveries, and continues to push forward fundamental research. The idea that the science behind the big-bang cannot be fully explained is not only nonsense, but a self-contradiction.

By contrast Gaia theory is just pseudoscience, requiring some sort of spiritual connection to guide evolution towards some sort of hippy paradise. I note that in your extensive cut-and-paste from Wikipedia, you fail to include the bit where it explains why Gaia theory is pseudoscientific clap-trap.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 24th, 2013, 4:44 am
by MalkuthSamanera1
Teh wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

For a start, there is no such thing as a scientific theory that can be "irrefutably proved". However successful theories not only explain reality, but often make predictions that are directly testable. For example big-bang theory predicted the cosmic microwave background long before the CMB was observed. Big-bang theory is now almost synonymous with quantum gravity, has lead to a great number of discoveries, and continues to push forward fundamental research. The idea that the science behind the big-bang cannot be fully explained is not only nonsense, but a self-contradiction.

By contrast Gaia theory is just pseudoscience, requiring some sort of spiritual connection to guide evolution towards some sort of hippy paradise. I note that in your extensive cut-and-paste from Wikipedia, you fail to include the bit where it explains why Gaia theory is pseudoscientific clap-trap.
You demean your argument by using derogatory language.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 24th, 2013, 4:50 am
by Teh
MalkuthSamanera1 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


You demean your argument by using derogatory language.
And cherry-picking from Wikipedia elevates your argument.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 24th, 2013, 4:50 am
by MalkuthSamanera1
Teh wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

For a start, there is no such thing as a scientific theory that can be "irrefutably proved". However successful theories not only explain reality, but often make predictions that are directly testable. For example big-bang theory predicted the cosmic microwave background long before the CMB was observed. Big-bang theory is now almost synonymous with quantum gravity, has lead to a great number of discoveries, and continues to push forward fundamental research. The idea that the science behind the big-bang cannot be fully explained is not only nonsense, but a self-contradiction.

By contrast Gaia theory is just pseudoscience, requiring some sort of spiritual connection to guide evolution towards some sort of hippy paradise. I note that in your extensive cut-and-paste from Wikipedia, you fail to include the bit where it explains why Gaia theory is pseudoscientific clap-trap.
You also demean your argument by making no distinction between the Gaia Hypothesis and the way it is used by different people (including 'hippies'). You cannot judge the validity of the Hypothesis based on the way it is used and appropriated by different groups of people. This is not logical at all. Many great thinkers and scientists throughout history would be damned by the same faulty logic.

-- Updated May 24th, 2013, 4:52 am to add the following --
Teh wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


And cherry-picking from Wikipedia elevates your argument.
Ah, but I was careful to state that there are more credible sources out there (I have read them myself on previous occasions). I was careful to state that Wikipedia is not the most credible source, it was just to get the ball rolling.

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 24th, 2013, 5:43 am
by Teh
MalkuthSamanera1 wrote:
You also demean your argument by making no distinction between the Gaia Hypothesis and the way it is used by different people (including 'hippies'). You cannot judge the validity of the Hypothesis based on the way it is used and appropriated by different groups of people. This is not logical at all. Many great thinkers and scientists throughout history would be damned by the same faulty logic.
I can read Wikipedia too. The Gaia hypothesis (as Wikipedia refers to it) has either zero content beyond standard evolutionary theory, or it is teleological, in which case it is wrong. So it either adds nothing, or it is wrong, depending on how you interpret it, which makes it even worse!

Re: Gaia Theory and Selfish Gene Theory

Posted: May 24th, 2013, 6:07 am
by Percarus
Would it not be best to co-relate the Gaia theory with the ‘altruist gene’? Ultimately insinuating that the whole ‘ecosystem’ can only thrive when abiding by the highest moral ideals (ie: ‘good’ ethics) since the establishment of order (not chaos) is attributive to success and continuation in any set of operations. Utilitarian ideals may indeed perceive the Gaia pseudo theory as being encompassed by a selfish gene if perceived wrongly only. I argue that it is this inherent desire for things to continue existing that thrives Gaia into fruition, not selfish inherent tendencies within living organisms (that would lead to self destruction of the whole ecosystem).

When I think of the word Gaia I tend to think of a spiritual masculine, but mayhap bisexual with the ability to change its gender, persona encompassed by symbology from thriving woodlands. I think of mother Earth (pagan in nature), I think of a collective sentience that lurks unknown within the individual bodies encompassing the whole. Gaia is life in my opinion! One may ask then, what is life? Good question...