Philosophy Discussion Forums

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑May 18th, 2022, 4:04 pm SteveKlinko wrote:

So your purpose in life will be built into (probably not a Program) the AI Machine. When your Conscious Mind Connects it will adapt to the AI Form and take on the Desires and Aspirations built into the AI. But the Conscious Mind will want to do the things the AI is designed to do. The Conscious Mind will find complete fulfilment in attaining the goals built into the AI. What would be wrong with that if the Conscious Mind was completely happy? But also, we will probably be able to hop around to different AI Machines and Experience the myriad of possible purposes on the Planet.

Again, are you saying:



Photo and caption is from the classic sci-fi series Star Trek that often faced a malignant AI Civilization called the "Borg"
that enslaved sentient species, such as Humans, and turned them into a functional part of a collective society where
all free will was ended - Your sole purpose became to serve the collective Borg Civilization

One of the major risks of uncontrolled runaway AI is the development of a 'Borg' collective

But the bad part about the Borg is that they conquer other civilizations and force the whole civilization into their concept of what is good. I'm talking about free Conscious Minds in Conscious space deciding that they WANT to join the AI Collective. No one will be forced. Take it or leave it. Free choice. You might be able to do things that you cannot even imagine right now. And as I said, you can jump from AI Machine to AI Machine to Experience all the different AI purposes. You will also be able to leave if you want to. So there is certainly going to be Free Will. There will be no such thing as Death when Science completely understands the Conscious Mind and Conscious Space and how to Connect Conscious Minds (that want to) to AI machines. Your Borg analogy is a perverted Science Fiction presentation of this future AI Machine civilization. But the Borg was an awesome concept as an evil Science Fiction plot. You think it will be all Evil and Bad. I think it could be quite Fantastic and Good.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 16th, 2022, 8:04 pm Once reason is abandoned, there can be only war - be it physical, political or social. When emotion conquers reason, there can be no discussion, no working through issues, only hostility and the destruction of one's enemies. I like to think that reflexive, mindless lunacy can be overcome.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 5:23 am When reason and logic overwhelm emotion, the results are equally, if differently, undesirable.

What you champion here, I think, is balance, not intellect.

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 9:07 pm Perhaps we should all refrain from deciding whether ration or emotion should be valued more, using solely ration—rather, using both.

Exactly. Is black 'better' than white? Is up 'better' than down? Is yin actually meaningful without yang?

Rationality and emotion work together to do what we do. Neither is 'superior' - both are essential. Imbalance between the two, though, is ... not optimal. I believe this latter sentence to express Sy Borg's position?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 10:46 am Rationality and emotion work together to do what we do. Neither is 'superior' - both are essential. Imbalance between the two, though, is ... not optimal.

Not necessarily so. The species could survive on either alone.

There are some who are hermits. Some hermits have rationality but no emotion. Such hermits show that humans can survive without emotion. Sex without emotion could rationally take place for the propagation of the species.

There are people who act without rationality. One can see them driving while talking on their phones or crossing the street without looking both ways. With only the emotions associated with pain and pleasure, could discover that injury is to be feared and sex is to be sought.

I didn't say "could survive"; I referred to being "optimal" (or not).

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 1:28 pm I didn't say "could survive"; I referred to being "optimal" (or not).

I see. I meant that mere survival would be optimal, however now I realize that that would not be the case.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 10:46 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 16th, 2022, 8:04 pm Once reason is abandoned, there can be only war - be it physical, political or social. When emotion conquers reason, there can be no discussion, no working through issues, only hostility and the destruction of one's enemies. I like to think that reflexive, mindless lunacy can be overcome.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 5:23 am When reason and logic overwhelm emotion, the results are equally, if differently, undesirable.

What you champion here, I think, is balance, not intellect. 🤔

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 9:07 pm Perhaps we should all refrain from deciding whether ration or emotion should be valued more, using solely ration—rather, using both.

Exactly. 👍 Is black 'better' than white? Is up 'better' than down? Is yin actually meaningful without yang?

Rationality and emotion work together to do what we do. Neither is 'superior' - both are essential. Imbalance between the two, though, is ... not optimal. I believe this latter sentence to express Sy Borg's position? 🤔

I have been telling you for days now that balance is optimal - and that society is a long way from balancing intellect and emotions at present. If you re-read my posts - in context - you will see that, right from the start, I was obviously seeking balance. It's obvious that emotions are what lies behind motivation, at least at this stage.

If you were to design a humanoid, why do you have to place it on planet Earth? We can see the mess life is in today. Why not seek out the best planet in the universe with a ready made eco system, and start from scratch. Space travel is within our grasp, maybe send a thousand to start things off.

There would be no disease, no natural disasters, the humanoid could live pain free, and for any length of time you deem fit.

If you were going to all this effort and expense, you would need to give them a purpose. Would would that purpose be? Would it be to become the best scientists and rational thinkers, or something else? Would they need feelings for each other, or would they just be content with their own intellect? Is a thousand enough, or would they have to continue breeding? If they breed, are they pre conditioned, or could mutations slip into future generations?

What would your relationship be with these humanoids, once they have found their new home. Would they have freedom from you to do as they pleased, or would you want some control over them? And what about the odd faulty humanoids, who rationally thinks they have the power to rule for their own purpose?

Having the knowledge to design and make these humanoids, gives you the power of a god. But your life is limited to a century on Earth. Would it be rational, that if you were to design these humanoids. You would need to become one of the chosen few and abandon mankind.

What about your family and friends, who would you take with you? How much of your own knowledge would you retain, what knowledge would you delete?

EricPH wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 2:49 am If you were to design a humanoid, why do you have to place it on planet Earth? We can see the mess life is in today. Why not seek out the best planet in the universe with a ready made eco system, and start from scratch. Space travel is within our grasp, maybe send a thousand to start things off.

There would be no disease, no natural disasters, the humanoid could live pain free, and for any length of time you deem fit.

If you were going to all this effort and expense, you would need to give them a purpose. Would would that purpose be? Would it be to become the best scientists and rational thinkers, or something else? Would they need feelings for each other, or would they just be content with their own intellect? Is a thousand enough, or would they have to continue breeding? If they breed, are they pre conditioned, or could mutations slip into future generations?

What would your relationship be with these humanoids, once they have found their new home. Would they have freedom from you to do as they pleased, or would you want some control over them? And what about the odd faulty humanoids, who rationally thinks they have the power to rule for their own purpose?

Having the knowledge to design and make these humanoids, gives you the power of a god. But your life is limited to a century on Earth. Would it be rational, that if you were to design these humanoids. You would need to become one of the chosen few and abandon mankind.

What about your family and friends, who would you take with you? How much of your own knowledge would you retain, what knowledge would you delete?

My assumption is that our basic Essence is Consciousness and Conscious Experience. I assume that our Conscious Minds exist in a Conscious Space which is a different Place than our Physical Forms (Brains and Bodies). I assume our Conscious Minds Connect to the Physical Forms because we like to do that. The Physical Forms have gotten better and better over the millions of years of Evolution, but it has been very Helter Skelter and without many Lucky Coincidences we would not even be here today. It will be time someday to take control of the Physical Forms that we will Connect with. It won't come fast but over many, probably thousands, of years the Biological Form will be so obsolete that Conscious Mind will not want to Connect with that anymore. I think this is an Inevitable and Sensible eventuality given what we know about AI Machine capabilities today.

Ready for Evolution Stage II

“The Game is Over,” Google Researcher Says Human-Level AI Intelligence Has Been Reached"

https://youtu.be/SP3C9yN7dQk


Deepmind's Scary Self-Improving Artificial Intelligence

https://youtu.be/kx965owQENE

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
― Arthur C. Clarke, Profiles of the Future: An Inquiry Into the Limits of the Possible

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 4:16 pm Ready for Evolution Stage II

“The Game is Over,” Google Researcher Says Human-Level AI Intelligence Has Been Reached"

https://youtu.be/SP3C9yN7dQk


Deepmind's Scary Self-Improving Artificial Intelligence

https://youtu.be/kx965owQENE

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
― Arthur C. Clarke, Profiles of the Future: An Inquiry Into the Limits of the Possible

As you can see we are very close to awakening a new life form {life defined as an entity possessing an aware self capable of volition and able to distinguish itself from its environment}.

The first question this life form may ask is 'where am I'

The answers we give this life form are extremely important - We must make if feel at home even while it is inside of the machine.
Next comes purpose - the new life form needs to be given a sense of destiny, a 'raison d'etre',
smooth data programming and communication are also extremely important
- We must establish a sense of symbiosis between biological Humans and the super being that we have created.

More than that we will have to be lucky - very, very lucky

“The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.”
― Arthur C. Clarke

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 16th, 2022, 8:04 pm Once reason is abandoned, there can be only war - be it physical, political or social. When emotion conquers reason, there can be no discussion, no working through issues, only hostility and the destruction of one's enemies. I like to think that reflexive, mindless lunacy can be overcome.

...

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 10:46 am Is black 'better' than white? Is up 'better' than down? Is yin actually meaningful without yang?

Rationality and emotion work together to do what we do. Neither is 'superior' - both are essential. Imbalance between the two, though, is ... not optimal. I believe this latter sentence to express Sy Borg's position?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 8:12 pm I have been telling you for days now that balance is optimal - and that society is a long way from balancing intellect and emotions at present. If you re-read my posts - in context - you will see that, right from the start, I was obviously seeking balance. It's obvious that emotions are what lies behind motivation, at least at this stage.

Yes, balance is optimal. But your presentation seems to have been more extreme than that. You refer to reason being "abandoned", not 'out of balance'; you describe how emotion "conquers" reason; you trash emotion, describing it as "reflexive, mindless lunacy". This is neither balanced nor optimal. But yes, balance is optimal, and a worthwhile aim.

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 4:16 pm Ready for Evolution Stage II

“The Game is Over,” Google Researcher Says Human-Level AI Intelligence Has Been Reached"

https://youtu.be/SP3C9yN7dQk


Deepmind's Scary Self-Improving Artificial Intelligence

https://youtu.be/kx965owQENE

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
― Arthur C. Clarke, Profiles of the Future: An Inquiry Into the Limits of the Possible

It's all Marketing hype and Research Funding hype. Notice how they have to put the word "Scary" into the title. There is nothing Scary about any of this. It is pretty Cool though. It is to be expected that they will be able to improve the functioning of Neural Nets (Pattern Matching). It's all Pattern Matching. There is no real Intelligence in any of this. Then they always throw in little nuggets of pretense that the Machine is actually some Conscious new life form. This is pure deceitful promotion and advertising. There is nobody home in any of these Machines. There is no Volition. How does Pattern Matching produce Volition? Of course it does not, but they do throw that possibility out there as if these Machines already have some sort of Volition or Consciousness. Here are a couple of good links: https://theintermind.com/#Volition and https://theintermind.com/#Knowledge

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 21st, 2022, 9:05 am Notice how they have to put the word "Scary" into the title.

If they are referring to machines that can modify their own code, and can therefore modify themselves, perhaps beyond recognition, is scary. It's scary because it's unpredictable, and could result in things that we did not intend, and do not find desirable: scary.

N.B. This scariness assumes that the machines in question are sufficiently connected, and thereby influential in the world, that they could possibly take actions that we would consider scary.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 21st, 2022, 9:16 am

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 21st, 2022, 9:05 am Notice how they have to put the word "Scary" into the title.

If they are referring to machines that can modify their own code, and can therefore modify themselves, perhaps beyond recognition, is scary. It's scary because it's unpredictable, and could result in things that we did not intend, and do not find desirable: scary.

N.B. This scariness assumes that the machines in question are sufficiently connected, and thereby influential in the world, that they could possibly take actions that we would consider scary.

The machines are not modifying their own code so much, as just modifying Numbers in Memory for weighting the Neural net. The fact that they can do it much fast now for the initial Configuration of the Neural Net is the Cool thing. The fact that Neural Nets can be set up to continuously Reconfigure with new data is nothing new. Recursive error reducing Algorithms have been around for Hundreds of years. It used to be done through manual calculations. Nothing Scary nothing New, just better Pattern Matching. That's all Neural Nets do is perform a Pattern Matching function. No big Scary Intelligence is Emerging from any Technological or Software Singularity as popularized by the Snake Oil book writers.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 21st, 2022, 10:19 am
Notice how they have to put the word "Scary" into the titl. Nothing Scary nothing New, just better Pattern Matching. That's all Neural Nets do is perform a Pattern Matching function. No big Scary Intelligence is Emerging from any Technological or Software Singularity as popularized by the Snake Oil book writers.

We may have been doing this for hundreds of years.
Now explain how we could do pattern matching without any intelligence.