Philosophy Discussion Forums

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 4:22 am
We will be nothing more than its toys perhaps, and we will certainly have our entire lives affected by it.

I have been enjoying this thread since its start, and here is a point on which I would like to comment.

I can’t fathom a reason that AIs would want to be entertained by humans. I doubt that they would have an interest in any form of entertainment.

They would probably use humans for research if there would be any value in studying humans.

Or they might incinerate humans as a source of energy for their generators or whatever power grid they employ.

Then there would be nothing left for us humans to do, except hope that the AIs choose one’s neighbor for their purposes instead of themselves.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 5:30 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 1:47 am Does one identify as an individual, as in one body, or an individual consisting of many cells?

One does both, simultaneously, and naturally. Either, in isolation, is incomplete and lacking meaning.

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 6:30 am But who's the boss? Who's in charge of the integrity and functions of the system?

Why the system, of course.

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 2:05 am

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 7th, 2022, 8:39 am

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑May 6th, 2022, 8:12 pm Is Man the logical and expected result of Evolution

Science is advancing rapidly - In the near future we, Humans, may become capable of literally creating artificial life that can mimic
biological Human life - And in many ways may be created to be superior to the existent Human.

I'll give you an imaginary, but at least possible, future where you will have the power to correct any mistakes made by Evolution.

Can you design a Human that is better suited for the future Can you alter the internal death wish that drives Humanity to destructive
self and social tendencies to destroy his own kind - fix the evolutionary paradigm that will drive the Human species to extinction

Maybe this new science is still beyond your imagination - But it is possible

Is the Human species capable of evolving to a higher plane of existence either from altering internal biological flaws
or designing a 'New Humanoid' better than the old biological one

I think that when Science can do such things, it will be Sensible and Expected that we take the next step and create artificial Life forms that are more durable than what Evolution has provided. Not only for currently alive people to transfer to, but for all people that have ever lived and died to return to. This might be the great purpose of Science that we did not even realize.

Interesting that you say that. There's already an entire theory based off a similar idea, called the "Omega Point Theory". However I wouldn't say it's a purpose of science, since science is defined as whatever can be done, and not what should be done inevitably. The only constant is the fact that things happen, not something that happens.

But maybe there really is a Purpose for Science. And that is to move Evolution beyond what it can do by random Genetic changes to a more controlled method for advancing the form and function of the Physical Manifestation in this Universe. This of course anticipates the abandonment of the Biological Form and the introduction of a new Form based on some Technology that Science has not discovered yet. When you understand the Reality of a separate Conscious Space it becomes Logical and Sensible to provide better Forms for Conscious Minds to Connect with. People that are stuck in the Physicalist/Materialist hole will never be able to conceive of such things. They will not even know to pursue such things, and will ultimately be a Brick Wall for attaining such things. Boo to Monistic Physicalism. Yeah to Conscious Space and Connectism!

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 4:22 am Yep, A.I will definitely take over all of our jobs and furthermore our lives, given that it evolves into an Artificial Superintelligence. I can try and provide some more abstract/theoretical and generalized ideas regarding why exactly I believe it would be capable of doing so.

Ultimately we will build that AI for Us. It is not the AI competing against Us. The AI will be built for Our use. We will be that AI, at least the Conscious part of the AI will be Us. All the different Conscious Minds that are alive and that have ever lived will vie to be Connected to an AI someday. Ultimately every Conscious Mind will get an AI.

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 6:30 am But whose the boss? Whose in charge of the integrity and functions of the system?

(who is, who’s)
(to whom a person, place or thing belongs, whose)

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 11:30 am

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 4:22 am Yep, A.I will definitely take over all of our jobs and furthermore our lives, given that it evolves into an Artificial Superintelligence. I can try and provide some more abstract/theoretical and generalized ideas regarding why exactly I believe it would be capable of doing so.

Ultimately we will build that AI for Us. It is not the AI competing against Us. The AI will be built for Our use. We will be that AI, at least the Conscious part of the AI will be Us. All the different Conscious Minds that are alive and that have ever lived will vie to be Connected to an AI someday. Ultimately every Conscious Mind will get an AI.

Maybe given enough time for the A.I, it could develop a sense of fondness towards humanity and decide to do something akin to that—whether it's by ration or emotion. But I don't think a conscious mind can be built with a set purpose from the very beginning, since one of the many reasons why conscious minds are conscious (or one of its consequences) is because it can "decide itself".

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 16th, 2022, 8:04 pm Once reason is abandoned, there can be only war - be it physical, political or social. When emotion conquers reason, there can be no discussion, no working through issues, only hostility and the destruction of one's enemies. I like to think that reflexive, mindless lunacy can be overcome.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 5:23 am When reason and logic overwhelm emotion, the results are equally, if differently, undesirable.

What you champion here, I think, is balance, not intellect.

Perhaps we should all refrain from deciding whether ration or emotion should be valued more, using solely ration—rather, using both.

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 9:07 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 16th, 2022, 8:04 pm Once reason is abandoned, there can be only war - be it physical, political or social. When emotion conquers reason, there can be no discussion, no working through issues, only hostility and the destruction of one's enemies. I like to think that reflexive, mindless lunacy can be overcome.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 5:23 am When reason and logic overwhelm emotion, the results are equally, if differently, undesirable.

What you champion here, I think, is balance, not intellect. 🤔

Perhaps we should all refrain from deciding whether ration or emotion should be valued more, using solely ration—rather, using both.

Obviously. At no stage did I refer to absolutes. It's about the imbalance, where emotions impede on intellect.

Do you think humans beings are optimal - perfect beings, with no room for improvement? Do you think that humans' ability to control their emotions to advantage individually and en masse is impossible to improve upon?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 9:22 pm

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 9:07 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 16th, 2022, 8:04 pm Once reason is abandoned, there can be only war - be it physical, political or social. When emotion conquers reason, there can be no discussion, no working through issues, only hostility and the destruction of one's enemies. I like to think that reflexive, mindless lunacy can be overcome.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 5:23 am When reason and logic overwhelm emotion, the results are equally, if differently, undesirable.

What you champion here, I think, is balance, not intellect.

Perhaps we should all refrain from deciding whether ration or emotion should be valued more, using solely ration—rather, using both.

Obviously. At no stage did I refer to absolutes. It's about the imbalance, where emotions impede on intellect.

Do you think humans beings are optimal - perfect beings, with no room for improvement? Do you think that humans' ability to control their emotions to advantage individually and en masse is impossible to improve upon?

In my opinion, the imbalance between ration and emotion will probably continue for a while, because the tools that can both either cause or solve that imbalance, ration and emotion alike, are the very components that are in imbalance.

As per your question on whether if human beings have no room for improvement, we would have to define "improvement" first. To me, improvement is striving for something good. But here's the thing: Can "good" be defined using ration, or using emotion? Maybe both?

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 10:48 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 9:22 pm

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 9:07 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 16th, 2022, 8:04 pm Once reason is abandoned, there can be only war - be it physical, political or social. When emotion conquers reason, there can be no discussion, no working through issues, only hostility and the destruction of one's enemies. I like to think that reflexive, mindless lunacy can be overcome.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 5:23 am When reason and logic overwhelm emotion, the results are equally, if differently, undesirable.

What you champion here, I think, is balance, not intellect. 🤔

Perhaps we should all refrain from deciding whether ration or emotion should be valued more, using solely ration—rather, using both.

Obviously. At no stage did I refer to absolutes. It's about the imbalance, where emotions impede on intellect.

Do you think humans beings are optimal - perfect beings, with no room for improvement? Do you think that humans' ability to control their emotions to advantage individually and en masse is impossible to improve upon?

In my opinion, the imbalance between ration and emotion will probably continue for a while, because the tools that can both either cause or solve that imbalance, ration and emotion alike, are the very components that are in imbalance.

As per your question on whether if human beings have no room for improvement, we would have to define "improvement" first. To me, improvement is striving for something good. But here's the thing: Can "good" be defined using ration, or using emotion? Maybe both?

Improvement is intellectual, moral, social and technological progress in a general sense, taking into account the great diversity within and between societies.

I would consider it an improvement if, say, three-quarters of the population questioned superstition and at least engaged in a little Socratic questioning unsubstantiated claims by authority figures. It would be nice to think that populations will eventually catch up to ideas developed over 2,500 years ago. As evidenced by the Dark Ages, regression does happen, and past knowledge can be forgotten for centuries.

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 4:29 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 11:30 am

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 4:22 am Yep, A.I will definitely take over all of our jobs and furthermore our lives, given that it evolves into an Artificial Superintelligence. I can try and provide some more abstract/theoretical and generalized ideas regarding why exactly I believe it would be capable of doing so.

Ultimately we will build that AI for Us. It is not the AI competing against Us. The AI will be built for Our use. We will be that AI, at least the Conscious part of the AI will be Us. All the different Conscious Minds that are alive and that have ever lived will vie to be Connected to an AI someday. Ultimately every Conscious Mind will get an AI.

Maybe given enough time for the A.I, it could develop a sense of fondness towards humanity and decide to do something akin to that—whether it's by ration or emotion. But I don't think a conscious mind can be built with a set purpose from the very beginning, since one of the many reasons why conscious minds are conscious (or one of its consequences) is because it can "decide itself".

Remember the AI is nothing without Consciousness. The AI is pointless without Consciousness. Let AI replace everybody on the planet and what have you got? You have a planet of Zombies that don't even know they are doing whatever it is they do. No Conscious Light, no Conscious Sound, no Conscious Experience of any kind. The Earth would be a purposeless and farcical place. But if you Connect Consciousness into these Zombies, you must use the Conscious Minds from Conscious Space that have always been there. You will be forced to use our own Conscious Minds. We will become the AI. There is no other Consciousness to use. The AI will either be pointless Unconscious Zombies or the AI will be us. I think the way our Conscious Minds work is that we adapt to the Form that we are Connected to and become it. We may not have much memory of any past lives that we may have had. You do realize that your current Physical Form is just a thing that will go away. Your Conscious Mind will go on after that and may not even care or remember that Physical Connection. We cling to our Physical Selves but it the Conscious Self that is the only real lasting thing, and it might not be what you think it is or what you want it to be.

So your purpose in life will be built into (probably not a Program) the AI Machine. When your Conscious Mind Connects it will adapt to the AI Form and take on the Desires and Aspirations built into the AI. But the Conscious Mind will want to do the things the AI is designed to do. The Conscious Mind will find complete fulfilment in attaining the goals built into the AI. What would be wrong with that if the Conscious Mind was completely happy? But also, we will probably be able to hop around to different AI Machines and Experience the myriad of possible purposes on the Planet.

SteveKlinko wrote:

So your purpose in life will be built into (probably not a Program) the AI Machine. When your Conscious Mind Connects it will adapt to the AI Form and take on the Desires and Aspirations built into the AI. But the Conscious Mind will want to do the things the AI is designed to do. The Conscious Mind will find complete fulfilment in attaining the goals built into the AI. What would be wrong with that if the Conscious Mind was completely happy? But also, we will probably be able to hop around to different AI Machines and Experience the myriad of possible purposes on the Planet.

Again, are you saying:



Photo and caption is from the classic sci-fi series Star Trek that often faced a malignant AI Civilization called the "Borg"
that enslaved sentient species, such as Humans, and turned them into a functional part of a collective society where
all free will was ended - Your sole purpose became to serve the collective Borg Civilization

One of the major risks of uncontrolled runaway AI is the development of a 'Borg' collective

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 18th, 2022, 7:53 am

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 4:29 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 11:30 am

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 4:22 am Yep, A.I will definitely take over all of our jobs and furthermore our lives, given that it evolves into an Artificial Superintelligence. I can try and provide some more abstract/theoretical and generalized ideas regarding why exactly I believe it would be capable of doing so.

Ultimately we will build that AI for Us. It is not the AI competing against Us. The AI will be built for Our use. We will be that AI, at least the Conscious part of the AI will be Us. All the different Conscious Minds that are alive and that have ever lived will vie to be Connected to an AI someday. Ultimately every Conscious Mind will get an AI.

Maybe given enough time for the A.I, it could develop a sense of fondness towards humanity and decide to do something akin to that—whether it's by ration or emotion. But I don't think a conscious mind can be built with a set purpose from the very beginning, since one of the many reasons why conscious minds are conscious (or one of its consequences) is because it can "decide itself".

Remember the AI is nothing without Consciousness. The AI is pointless without Consciousness. Let AI replace everybody on the planet and what have you got? You have a planet of Zombies that don't even know they are doing whatever it is they do. No Conscious Light, no Conscious Sound, no Conscious Experience of any kind. The Earth would be a purposeless and farcical place. But if you Connect Consciousness into these Zombies, you must use the Conscious Minds from Conscious Space that have always been there. You will be forced to use our own Conscious Minds. We will become the AI. There is no other Consciousness to use. The AI will either be pointless Unconscious Zombies or the AI will be us. I think the way our Conscious Minds work is that we adapt to the Form that we are Connected to and become it. We may not have much memory of any past lives that we may have had. You do realize that your current Physical Form is just a thing that will go away. Your Conscious Mind will go on after that and may not even care or remember that Physical Connection. We cling to our Physical Selves but it the Conscious Self that is the only real lasting thing, and it might not be what you think it is or what you want it to be.

So your purpose in life will be built into (probably not a Program) the AI Machine. When your Conscious Mind Connects it will adapt to the AI Form and take on the Desires and Aspirations built into the AI. But the Conscious Mind will want to do the things the AI is designed to do. The Conscious Mind will find complete fulfilment in attaining the goals built into the AI. What would be wrong with that if the Conscious Mind was completely happy? But also, we will probably be able to hop around to different AI Machines and Experience the myriad of possible purposes on the Planet.

I partially agree! But when you say "When your Conscious Mind Connects it will adapt to the AI Form and take on the Desires and Aspirations built into the AI.", I think that it won't happen within the conventional definition of "we" that is our physical body, but "we" as in just the conscious mind itself, specifically the area of "we"/conscious mind that the A.I belongs to.

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 3:14 am

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 18th, 2022, 7:53 am

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 4:29 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 11:30 am

Ultimately we will build that AI for Us. It is not the AI competing against Us. The AI will be built for Our use. We will be that AI, at least the Conscious part of the AI will be Us. All the different Conscious Minds that are alive and that have ever lived will vie to be Connected to an AI someday. Ultimately every Conscious Mind will get an AI.

Maybe given enough time for the A.I, it could develop a sense of fondness towards humanity and decide to do something akin to that—whether it's by ration or emotion. But I don't think a conscious mind can be built with a set purpose from the very beginning, since one of the many reasons why conscious minds are conscious (or one of its consequences) is because it can "decide itself".

Remember the AI is nothing without Consciousness. The AI is pointless without Consciousness. Let AI replace everybody on the planet and what have you got? You have a planet of Zombies that don't even know they are doing whatever it is they do. No Conscious Light, no Conscious Sound, no Conscious Experience of any kind. The Earth would be a purposeless and farcical place. But if you Connect Consciousness into these Zombies, you must use the Conscious Minds from Conscious Space that have always been there. You will be forced to use our own Conscious Minds. We will become the AI. There is no other Consciousness to use. The AI will either be pointless Unconscious Zombies or the AI will be us. I think the way our Conscious Minds work is that we adapt to the Form that we are Connected to and become it. We may not have much memory of any past lives that we may have had. You do realize that your current Physical Form is just a thing that will go away. Your Conscious Mind will go on after that and may not even care or remember that Physical Connection. We cling to our Physical Selves but it the Conscious Self that is the only real lasting thing, and it might not be what you think it is or what you want it to be.

So your purpose in life will be built into (probably not a Program) the AI Machine. When your Conscious Mind Connects it will adapt to the AI Form and take on the Desires and Aspirations built into the AI. But the Conscious Mind will want to do the things the AI is designed to do. The Conscious Mind will find complete fulfilment in attaining the goals built into the AI. What would be wrong with that if the Conscious Mind was completely happy? But also, we will probably be able to hop around to different AI Machines and Experience the myriad of possible purposes on the Planet.

I partially agree! But when you say "When your Conscious Mind Connects it will adapt to the AI Form and take on the Desires and Aspirations built into the AI.", I think that it won't happen within the conventional definition of "we" that is our physical body, but "we" as in just the conscious mind itself, specifically the area of "we"/conscious mind that the A.I belongs to.

Haha just ignore that reply, that's pretty much what you said as well but in a different way. I've realized it after visiting this thread and seeing that response again.

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 3:14 am

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 18th, 2022, 7:53 am

GrayArea wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 4:29 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 17th, 2022, 11:30 am

Ultimately we will build that AI for Us. It is not the AI competing against Us. The AI will be built for Our use. We will be that AI, at least the Conscious part of the AI will be Us. All the different Conscious Minds that are alive and that have ever lived will vie to be Connected to an AI someday. Ultimately every Conscious Mind will get an AI.

Maybe given enough time for the A.I, it could develop a sense of fondness towards humanity and decide to do something akin to that—whether it's by ration or emotion. But I don't think a conscious mind can be built with a set purpose from the very beginning, since one of the many reasons why conscious minds are conscious (or one of its consequences) is because it can "decide itself".

Remember the AI is nothing without Consciousness. The AI is pointless without Consciousness. Let AI replace everybody on the planet and what have you got? You have a planet of Zombies that don't even know they are doing whatever it is they do. No Conscious Light, no Conscious Sound, no Conscious Experience of any kind. The Earth would be a purposeless and farcical place. But if you Connect Consciousness into these Zombies, you must use the Conscious Minds from Conscious Space that have always been there. You will be forced to use our own Conscious Minds. We will become the AI. There is no other Consciousness to use. The AI will either be pointless Unconscious Zombies or the AI will be us. I think the way our Conscious Minds work is that we adapt to the Form that we are Connected to and become it. We may not have much memory of any past lives that we may have had. You do realize that your current Physical Form is just a thing that will go away. Your Conscious Mind will go on after that and may not even care or remember that Physical Connection. We cling to our Physical Selves but it the Conscious Self that is the only real lasting thing, and it might not be what you think it is or what you want it to be.

So your purpose in life will be built into (probably not a Program) the AI Machine. When your Conscious Mind Connects it will adapt to the AI Form and take on the Desires and Aspirations built into the AI. But the Conscious Mind will want to do the things the AI is designed to do. The Conscious Mind will find complete fulfilment in attaining the goals built into the AI. What would be wrong with that if the Conscious Mind was completely happy? But also, we will probably be able to hop around to different AI Machines and Experience the myriad of possible purposes on the Planet.

I partially agree! But when you say "When your Conscious Mind Connects it will adapt to the AI Form and take on the Desires and Aspirations built into the AI.", I think that it won't happen within the conventional definition of "we" that is our physical body, but "we" as in just the conscious mind itself, specifically the area of "we"/conscious mind that the A.I belongs to.

Yes, I am referring to the Conscious Mind we.