Philosophy Discussion Forums

Here are some comments on I-theory (an alternative view of information)

Scientists forced us to believe that the universe came into being from “nothing” and the life created itself by a chain of random collisions. This official science breaks e.g. the first and second laws of thermodynamics which are the basic laws of science.

I don't believe that the random collisions of DNA forming are at odds in any way with the first and second laws of thermodynamics. For a lengthy discussion to the resolution to this apparent contradiction, please check out the thread "Object probability (of specific state)" which discusses this. In short- we can consider the "random probability" of the living thing (objective probability of specific state) to be a separate measure of probability to that of entropy (which clumps a ton of micro states together into macro states at specific energy levels). These are not contradictory, rather complementary. The odds that I eat chicken tonight being high does not dispute the fact that the odds I drink milk tonight are low- they are just completely different probabilities measuring different things.

Before Big Bang there was the Information only, nothing to be observed or measured.

This is an interesting idea. In "Objective probability of specific state" the information is merely the probability of the system. So in that framework, there is no information before the big bang (as there is not state to have a probability). In this framework, there is information there before hand, kind of "waiting to arrive" in this physical system.

Some part of Information transformed itself into mass, energy e.c.t. and it was the beginning of our universe.

Here I am understanding that information can transform itself into energy and matter. This is an interesting idea. However, it seems to be moving beyond the realm of "tied to existing usage of terms" and moving into "creating new terms of usage". Or I'll restate this as- a formulation of information which is moving it away from the sort of classical notion of information to become a new entity (which may have little relationship to the classical notion of information which is associated with probability). If this is the case, we may want a new word to define this entity, as "information" comes laden with meaning which is more restrictive. However, there may be a strong reason to use this term here but helping explain this relationship would clarify the underlying concepts presented.

Life forms have capacity to process information and to absorb information.

This concept is more in line with existing notions of information. I'll restate this as: living things have the capacity to perceive the environment, react to it, form internal models of it, and adjust the external environment. I don't think these abilities necessarily have a relationship to the first notion of information above (which can transform into matter and energy), but could.

If we look at this in the sort of "classical information" sense there is a subjective component to the living things perception (it does not have knowledge of its environment, and so gains this knowledge through perception) and an objective component (the organism, by absorbing information about the environment, effectively captures the state of the environment internally, which is similar in a sense to any deterministic causal chain).

Or in other words "absorbing information" is a form of "causal propagation" which takes externally formed things (through probabilistic means) and propagates them into itself. "Processing information" then is taking this internal model, and "thinking about them". In a computer, if we can use that analogy for a moment, it takes in information (a starting state) and then runs algorithms on this state to come to a final state. This deterministic processing does not "create information" (which implies a nondeterministic component) but rather "reconstitutes information" to extract the salient details for further action or choice. If there are actions taken on this information, it is in a sense a propagation of the original causal chain (of whatever the organism perceived which requires reaction).

Kris wrote:Atreyu,
Thank you for your opinion. I want to clarify the following;
Information is only a working name to that super being because information is a dominant property.
My description of Information will be:
1. It can process information in unimaginable way, with capacity to transform itself into mass, energy ect.
2. It can manage chaos and universe evolution on cosmic scale
3. It can generate real reality intentionally – unlimited space filled with universe. The universe is expanding and its character is developing quicker so there is no evolution restraints to the living beings.
All what we are, what we can sense and think is just real reality created by Information from itself inside itself. There is nothing more that Information.

Kris: Good work and an interesting account of the role of information (per common usage of that term) in the observable universe. I read all the above posts and have some critical comments for you.

Let me start by concurring with your observation that information seems to be recorded within particles and even more prominently in lifeforms. Particles of matter behave in specific ways that humans observe and partially understand. It seems clear the so-called laws of physics apply equally in all inertial reference planes. A particle of carbon will, under certain circumstances spontaneously combine with oxygen and a host of other elements and molecules. Crystals grow from certain compounds in specific ways which are determined by the atomic structure of the materials involved. Max Planck's description of the quanta reinforced this thought by revealing a natural phenomenon that mirrors the human concept of integer numbers. So yes, using our reason, we can accurately describe what we call information recorded within the structures of matter. I'm note a scientist, but presume energy, Higgs fields, etc. follow this same pattern.

Lifeforms present an even more compelling case for describing coherent information recorded inside our DNA/RNA. Which leads us to the central question of - why is the universe, including life. formed in this way? Why not pure chaos, random fields charged with energy? You speculated that before the "big bang", before actual matter and energy arrived, information about the forthcoming universe already existed. In the post quoted above, you describe this primordial information as "a working title for a super being". I suggest this is a simple category mistake. Speaking for myself, I can accept that the information encoded in matter, and especially lifeforms, strongly indicates that all of this was designed and implemented by a sentient being. However, its illogical to equate the information with a supposed "super being" in itself.

In summary, you've made some useful claims about information as a "dominant feature of the physical universe". Calling these observations a theory, however, is not warranted at this time. A save that term for more complete, even prescriptive, accounts such as theories of history from the German Idealists. thx - CW

Thank you ThalesofAthens for your excellent input.
I want to clarify some issues.

“I don't believe that the random collisions of DNA forming are at odds in any way with the first and second laws of thermodynamics”.

There is mathematical probability that a chemical particle can be created by random collisions. However there is not possibility to keep it and to self-duplicate, not even mention about the self-developing. Probability of destruction on new particle is higher than probability of forming - II thermodynamic rule.

“In this framework, there is information there before hand, kind of "waiting to arrive" in this physical system…Here I am understanding that information can transform itself into energy and matter.”

Information (before BB and now ) is not a knowledge or field with endless capacity. Rather a beings with an enormous capacity. I used the name Information because it was the leading character of it. Information transformed itself into all: the transformation, space, mass, energy and whatever else. And a portion still exists of the original Information. And there is a room for another Information (-s) too.
You can visual it by comparison to a game program which is creating game world and game persons and allowing them to take decisions and actions.

“I don't think these abilities necessarily have a relationship to the first notion of information above (which can transform into matter and energy), but could.”

Agree. Only the Information can generate all and the information of living beings is just more knowledge and know-how. However both the Information and the living ones use the knowledge and know-how. And this is a common things between us and the Information.
I think that we cannot generate information ( knowledge ) but just absorb it from remaining Information or by analyzing all what we have already. Just some of us have better “information osmosis” and they can invent a wheel which was always here.

Thank you for your real high class and professional input. Your writing proofed also the saying of your countrymen of Athens 3000 years ago: only Hellenic people are civilized the other are barbarians .

Thank you Chasw for your good input.

I agree with your statement that this is not a theory – it is just a title easy to write.
Fully agree that mass, energy ect have deformed property and are following their rules.
The best example of that is the periodic / Mendeleyev table of elements.

I do not support idea that “before BB the information about the forthcoming universe already existed”. Generally the Information “knows (?)” all state and all probability, so nothing can be surprise. It can perfectly manage the BB chaos so is both a good designer and a good project manager too.

And I am between the rock and a hard place. The Information is not information in common sense and the Information is neither a beings. Both sides rising the objections are right. The Information has full knowledge, full power and some attributes common with living organisms. It is not any superman rather a jinn who can do anything what he wish.

The fanny consequences of the I-theory is that it can explain many patches of present day sciences. The gurus are developing strange theories e.g. to create continuity in universe creation where I-theory does not have pitfalls there. It is logic before, during and after BB up to return to Information.

And all was reduced to only one state – the Information.