Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

[Sy Borg]

The old "mysterious ways" line. It never fails. The above is just dogma.

The link between the soul and God is unimaginable because it is non-existent. God is so unimaginable that it defies even a sci-fi treatment because God, by definition, is bathed in mysterianism. Yet, it's surprising how many seem sure that they know "his" mind. The reason is clear - they mistake aspects of their own mind for God. By passing responsibility to a separate aspect of one's consciousness, one is not subject to the the same level of doubts.

One can have coherent self-conversations between the emotional aspects of oneself and the wise aspects of oneself. It's all happening in theists' minds, but they believe that the universe/God is speaking to them.

What is happening in your own mind is the same phenomenon that's happening in the Theist mind. Please share what you think is the difference?

Awareness of the dynamics rather than relying on superstitious explanations.

I'm not following you there. What "dynamics" created the universe?

If you were interested, you would have availed yourself of the best information we have so far. It's out there. However, you are just playing rhetorical games to justify a literal (mis)interpretation of the metaphorical prose of antiquity. You don't seem interested in how the universe came about, only in proving that an anthropomorphic spirit created the universe.

[dattaswami]

What is happening in your own mind is the same phenomenon that's happening in the Theist mind. Please share what you think is the difference?

Awareness of the dynamics rather than relying on superstitious explanations.

I'm not following you there. What "dynamics" created the universe?

If you were interested, you would have availed yourself of the best information we have so far. It's out there. However, you are just playing rhetorical games to justify a literal (mis)interpretation of the metaphorical prose of antiquity. You don't seem interested in how the universe came about, only in proving that an anthropomorphic spirit created the universe.

The second Brahma Sūtra says that the existence of the cause for this systematic and orderly universe must be inferred (Janmādyasya yataḥ). There is no point in seeking the cause of every cause in an endless chain of causes, ad infinitum. It leads to an infinite regress (anavasthā), which prevents us from making any meaningful conclusion. You have to stop somewhere and identify an ultimate cause. Scientists say that inert energy itself is the cause of this world. The world has broadly three components, energy, matter and awareness. The energy itself becomes matter and awareness. So, energy is the ultimate cause of the world, as per the scientists. The only problem with the claim of the scientists is that inert energy, by itself, cannot be responsible for the systematic arrangement and functioning of the cosmos. The sophisticated and orderly structure and functioning of the cosmos clearly indicates that it must be the result of an intelligence.

This means that awareness or intelligence should somehow have existed before the origin of the world. But assuming that the awareness which is found in living beings, existed before the inert energy as the ultimate cause of the world, is absurd. Awareness is a product that is produced in course of the formation of the world. Awareness is found only in living beings and it cannot exist independently in the absence of matter and energy. Awareness is produced in the nervous system, which is made of matter. It is actually a work-form of the inert energy that is derived from the food consumed by the living organism. When the inert energy enters the functioning nervous system, it gets converted to awareness. So, awareness depends on both matter and energy. Naturally, this awareness could not have existed before the origin of matter and energy. It means that it could not possibly be the cause of the world. Inert energy cannot be the cause of the world since it is unintelligent, while awareness cannot be the cause of the world since it depends on matter and energy.

This means that the awareness (intelligence) that must have existed in the beginning and which caused the energy to differentiate into the systematic and orderly world consisting of energy, matter and awareness, must be unimaginable. Being the cause of space, energy, matter and all of creation, it is impossible for any being within creation to ever imagine it. This Unimaginable Awareness Itself is known as God. This unimaginable God created the primordial energy or primordial space and then created the first form (body) out of that energy. Upon creating this first energetic form, the unimaginable God entered and permanently merged with that form to become the First Energetic Incarnation of God, called Datta (Īśvara). The unimaginable God merged with both the energetic body and the soul of Datta. The body and soul of Datta are both imaginable.

Only the God, who merged into them is unimaginable. Datta further entered into other energetic forms of certain angels in the upper world and certain material human forms on earth to become other Energetic and Human Incarnations of God. When Datta entered the human form of Krishna, the energetic body of Datta dissolved in the gross body of Krishna and the imaginable soul of Datta dissolved in the imaginable soul of Krishna. Since the unimaginable God was already present in the body and soul of Datta, the same unimaginable God also exists in the body and soul of Krishna after the entry of Datta in Him. So, we can say that the unimaginable God, through Datta, merged with Krishna both externally (body-wise) and internally (soul-wise). This concept is stated in the Veda as “Antarbahiśca...”.

The simple conclusion is that the unimaginable God merged with the body and soul of Krishna. The existence of the unimaginable God in Krishna is known from the inference drawn from observed unimaginable events and the extraordinary knowledge expressed by Krishna. Unimaginable events are miracles. The biggest miracle was the cosmic vision (Viśvarūpa) shown by Krishna to Arjuna. Through it, Krishna proved that He was the Creator, Controller and Destroyer of the world. That miracle clearly differentiates Krishna from all other souls.

No ordinary soul can perform even the smallest miracle like creating even a single atom of matter or even a ray of energy. Observing the unimaginable miracle performed by Krishna, we can infer that He is an Incarnation of the unimaginable God. Similarly, based on the excellent spiritual knowledge given by Him in the form of the Gita, we can infer that He is an Incarnation of God.

[Sy Borg]

Do you actually believe that guff? Do you see how incoherent the ideas are? The way you jumped to "God dunnit" after examining energy for two sentences was not unexpected.

Don't you notice how you rush to conclusions rather than wonder or question your assumptions? No hesitation, no doubt, no thought - just furiously pointing to any idea that might save you from oblivion when you die. This shows a strong, albeit overactive, survival instinct. At some point you have to accept that you will snuff it and be consigned to the past. There is no fancy afterlife where you can live with God for eternity. You just die, you go away, and you are recycled and replaced. There is no magical spirit realm where you go, aside from in the last few minutes of brain oxygen after you are declared clinically dead.

[3017Metaphysician]

What is happening in your own mind is the same phenomenon that's happening in the Theist mind. Please share what you think is the difference?

Awareness of the dynamics rather than relying on superstitious explanations.

I'm not following you there. What "dynamics" created the universe?

If you were interested, you would have availed yourself of the best information we have so far. It's out there. However, you are just playing rhetorical games to justify a literal (mis)interpretation of the metaphorical prose of antiquity. You don't seem interested in how the universe came about, only in proving that an anthropomorphic spirit created the universe.

I'm not proving anything SB. I'm simply asking you to support your assertions. I'm asking you, again, to please explain, and
I quote: "Awareness of the dynamics... ." What are these "dynamics" that you are referring to... ?

[3017Metaphysician]

Awareness of the dynamics rather than relying on superstitious explanations.

I'm not following you there. What "dynamics" created the universe?

If you were interested, you would have availed yourself of the best information we have so far. It's out there. However, you are just playing rhetorical games to justify a literal (mis)interpretation of the metaphorical prose of antiquity. You don't seem interested in how the universe came about, only in proving that an anthropomorphic spirit created the universe.

The second Brahma Sūtra says that the existence of the cause for this systematic and orderly universe must be inferred (Janmādyasya yataḥ). There is no point in seeking the cause of every cause in an endless chain of causes, ad infinitum. It leads to an infinite regress (anavasthā), which prevents us from making any meaningful conclusion. You have to stop somewhere and identify an ultimate cause. Scientists say that inert energy itself is the cause of this world. The world has broadly three components, energy, matter and awareness. The energy itself becomes matter and awareness. So, energy is the ultimate cause of the world, as per the scientists. The only problem with the claim of the scientists is that inert energy, by itself, cannot be responsible for the systematic arrangement and functioning of the cosmos. The sophisticated and orderly structure and functioning of the cosmos clearly indicates that it must be the result of an intelligence.

This means that awareness or intelligence should somehow have existed before the origin of the world. But assuming that the awareness which is found in living beings, existed before the inert energy as the ultimate cause of the world, is absurd. Awareness is a product that is produced in course of the formation of the world. Awareness is found only in living beings and it cannot exist independently in the absence of matter and energy. Awareness is produced in the nervous system, which is made of matter. It is actually a work-form of the inert energy that is derived from the food consumed by the living organism. When the inert energy enters the functioning nervous system, it gets converted to awareness. So, awareness depends on both matter and energy. Naturally, this awareness could not have existed before the origin of matter and energy. It means that it could not possibly be the cause of the world. Inert energy cannot be the cause of the world since it is unintelligent, while awareness cannot be the cause of the world since it depends on matter and energy.

This means that the awareness (intelligence) that must have existed in the beginning and which caused the energy to differentiate into the systematic and orderly world consisting of energy, matter and awareness, must be unimaginable. Being the cause of space, energy, matter and all of creation, it is impossible for any being within creation to ever imagine it. This Unimaginable Awareness Itself is known as God. This unimaginable God created the primordial energy or primordial space and then created the first form (body) out of that energy. Upon creating this first energetic form, the unimaginable God entered and permanently merged with that form to become the First Energetic Incarnation of God, called Datta (Īśvara). The unimaginable God merged with both the energetic body and the soul of Datta. The body and soul of Datta are both imaginable.

Only the God, who merged into them is unimaginable. Datta further entered into other energetic forms of certain angels in the upper world and certain material human forms on earth to become other Energetic and Human Incarnations of God. When Datta entered the human form of Krishna, the energetic body of Datta dissolved in the gross body of Krishna and the imaginable soul of Datta dissolved in the imaginable soul of Krishna. Since the unimaginable God was already present in the body and soul of Datta, the same unimaginable God also exists in the body and soul of Krishna after the entry of Datta in Him. So, we can say that the unimaginable God, through Datta, merged with Krishna both externally (body-wise) and internally (soul-wise). This concept is stated in the Veda as “Antarbahiśca...”.

The simple conclusion is that the unimaginable God merged with the body and soul of Krishna. The existence of the unimaginable God in Krishna is known from the inference drawn from observed unimaginable events and the extraordinary knowledge expressed by Krishna. Unimaginable events are miracles. The biggest miracle was the cosmic vision (Viśvarūpa) shown by Krishna to Arjuna. Through it, Krishna proved that He was the Creator, Controller and Destroyer of the world. That miracle clearly differentiates Krishna from all other souls.

No ordinary soul can perform even the smallest miracle like creating even a single atom of matter or even a ray of energy. Observing the unimaginable miracle performed by Krishna, we can infer that He is an Incarnation of the unimaginable God. Similarly, based on the excellent spiritual knowledge given by Him in the form of the Gita, we can infer that He is an Incarnation of God.

Hello!

First, can you please share your thoughts on how the information narrative emerged from the matter narrative? In other words, to assume that information is the primary 'stuff' in the universe which in-turn causes stuff to exist, what instructions are written into 'stuff' that causes biological creatures to emerge?

[Sy Borg]

Don't expect me to spoon feed you. Go back to the post and read again. First, see how you badly misinterpreted my reference to dynamics. Then analyse the context and come back to me. It will be interesting to see if you are capable of working it out.

[dattaswami]

Do you actually believe that guff? Do you see how incoherent the ideas are? The way you jumped to "God dunnit" after examining energy for two sentences was not unexpected.

Don't you notice how you rush to conclusions rather than wonder or question your assumptions? No hesitation, no doubt, no thought - just furiously pointing to any idea that might save you from oblivion when you die. This shows a strong, albeit overactive, survival instinct. At some point you have to accept that you will snuff it and be consigned to the past. There is no fancy afterlife where you can live with God for eternity. You just die, you go away, and you are recycled and replaced. There is no magical spirit realm where you go, aside from in the last few minutes of brain oxygen after you are declared clinically dead.

The first creation that came from God is space or inert energy. Akasa (space) and Tejas (inert energy) are one and the same because space is a form of inert energy only. Matter, work, light, heat, sound, electricity, magnetism and awareness are also other forms of inert energy. Our imagination cannot cross the limits of space.

The link or process of production between God and space is also unimaginable like God. This link is beyond space and God is beyond this link. The space is called as Mahat. The link is called as Avyaktam which means unimaginable. The Parabrahman is mentioned as purusha. The Veda says that Avyaktam is beyond space and purusha is beyond Avyaktam (Mahatah paramavyaktam avyaktat purushah parah).

God is first. Space is second. Air is third. We can explain the generation of third from second, but not the second from first. Second and third are imaginable items. Space or energy became air. Air means atoms. This is energy condensing into matter. This process of condensation is explicable and debatable.

This process is parinama or vivarta. If matter is different from energy only by quantitative way it is vivarta like water condensed to ice. Vivarta brings only physical difference. The parinama is qualitative difference like milk becoming curd. Before the creation of matter, only energy exists. If energy is condensed, it should be vivarta process only, which is physical. But if all the mater is energy only, how the qualitative difference came between items of matter?

There cannot be qualitative difference between blocks of ice having various sizes. One block of ice may be more concentrated (or condensed) but it cannot bring a qualitative difference. But the qualitative difference between the milk and curd is practically experienced in the world. Milk and curd are also condensed products of same energy and may have quantitative difference.

Thus this point of contradiction brings the unimaginability, which is the characteristic of God. Therefore, the presence of the unimaginable power of God (Maya) is everywhere in the world. The Gita says that this Prakruti is also Maya (Mayam tu prakrutim). Thus the entire world is affected by the hidden power of God (Maya), which is known by deep analysis.

When the energy and work are essentially same, the different quantities of energy-drops (electrons) giving rise to different properties mean different works of God giving rise to different properties. Here the wonder is that the working material and work are one and the same in essence. Therefore, the unimaginable God does wonderful works and His work it self is the working material.

The work is power of God, which it self is the working material. All this creation is work without any separate working material because the working material itself is a form of work. According to science also, any material (matter) is a form of energy and work is also a form of the same energy.

Thus, this wonder exists in science, which says that matter is a condensed form energy. For the process of condensation, space is required and the space should be different from energy for the process of condensation to take place. But space is a form of energy as per the special theory of relativity.

In such case, how the energy is condensed? Because, space is also energy. This is another wonder. Like this, when this nature (Prakruti) is analyzed, it is a wonder (Maya) only as said in Gita (Mayam tu..). Thus, Maya becomes the inner substratum of the world. God is the substratum of Maya (Mayinam tu…Gita).

Thus, God is the final substratum of this world. The generation of matter on condensation of energy and the transformation of matter in to energy by dilution are wonders in the context of space being the energy.

Thus, the generation, maintenance on substratum and dissolution are works of Maya, which mean wonders of God. Such wonder is for souls only and is well known to God and therefore it is not a wonder to God. Thus, Maya is a logic or science for God, just like the nature is a logical science to the souls. It is only higher logic or super science of God which is above the level of souls.

[Sy Borg]

A brave attempt, but it's just pseudoscience.

I think that theists would do better focusing on the subjective nature of their preferred deity rather than imagining an ontic existence that's neither credible, nor provable. God is the personification - based on one's own mind - of nothingness or the universe (depending on whether they are pantheists or panentheists).

As far as science is concerned, the universe was vastly more small, hot and dense and then inflated dramatically due to dark energy. Once it had cooled enough, the ions gradually formed atoms. Then atoms formed molecules, and the rest is history.

As long as science does not know the conditions preceding and triggering of the big bang, theists will continue to insert their deities in the gaps. This is to be expected, because deities have always occupied the gaps in our knowledge, making God a personfied placeholder (for theists) representing what might actually be with this anthropomorphised entity. Science also uses placeholders, eg. dark matter and dark energy, but they don't attribute those forces with a human personality as theists do.

[dattaswami]

A brave attempt, but it's just pseudoscience.

I think that theists would do better focusing on the subjective nature of their preferred deity rather than imagining an ontic existence that's neither credible, nor provable. God is the personification - based on one's own mind - of nothingness or the universe (depending on whether they are pantheists or panentheists).

As far as science is concerned, the universe was vastly more small, hot and dense and then inflated dramatically due to dark energy. Once it had cooled enough, the ions gradually formed atoms. Then atoms formed molecules, and the rest is history.

As long as science does not know the conditions preceding and triggering of the big bang, theists will continue to insert their deities in the gaps. This is to be expected, because deities have always occupied the gaps in our knowledge, making God a personfied placeholder (for theists) representing what might actually be with this anthropomorphised entity. Science also uses placeholders, eg. dark matter and dark energy, but they don't attribute those forces with a human personality as theists do.

The existence of unimaginable entity can be noted in two ways: 1) The unimaginable boundary of this infinite universe is a standing proof for the existence of unimaginable entity (God) . If you reach the edge of this imaginable universe, you must find something, which is different from imaginable phase. Beyond the edge of this imaginable universe, if you find again imaginable entity only, you cannot say that it is the end or edge of the imaginable universe since such a possibility gives only the continuation of the imaginable entity only. Something different from imaginable entity means only unimaginable entity.

Unimaginable entity cannot be even imagined, not to speak of its observation. If you have reached the edge of the soil, you must find water, which is different from the soil. I have taken this example since water is the cause and the soil is its created product or effect (Adbhyah Pruthivi... Veda). Similarly, the unimaginable entity, which is beyond the imaginable boundary of the universe, is the cause of this universe. The unimaginable entity is realized as that which can never be achieved even by imagination.

This directly means that you can never reach the edge of this imaginable universe. You cannot give a better reason for the unreachable edge of the universe, which is unimaginable. Once, science admitted the word ‘infinity’, it has accepted the existence of unimaginable entity, which is called as the original absolute God.


2)The miracles, which are observed in this world, are the unimaginable events indicating unimaginable God, the unimaginable source of such miracles. Miracles may be exhibited by demons also, but, it is immaterial. A technician exhibits a scientific concept through practical demonstration, which is called as experiment. The character of technician is immaterial and only the established concept is important. You cannot cancel all the miracles as magic of Sarkar [a famous magician in India]. There are genuine miracles also, which are experienced by highly intellectual human beings.

The miracles exhibited by demons are also from the same unimaginable source (God). Hence, the miracle of a demon is also indicating the unimaginable God. God grants these miraculous powers to demons for their rigid penance. The devils are destroyed by the God for the misuse of such miracles. The destruction of a devil does not mean the destruction of concept established by the miracle performed by him.

The Veda, the Brahma Sutras and the Gita clearly state that the absolute God is unimaginable. The authority of these scriptures is based on the above mentioned practical proof given by the unimaginable boundary of the universe( and the miracles exhibited in the world. To fulfil the statements of the scripture, the above practical proof is provided by God. Therefore, we do not force anybody to accept a concept simply because it is stated in the scripture. Scripture (Shruti and its non-contradicting Smruti), logical analysis (Yukti) and the practical observed experience (Anubhava) are the three components of the authority.

[Sy Borg]

A quick note before I start lunch, your "unimaginable entity" is sounding an awful lot like absolute nothingness.