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By dattaswami
#424180
It is a very clear point that creation of energy was the first process of God and hence, energy was the first item that was created by God. From energy, matter and awareness came out with the help of which various inert and non-inert items were designed by God resulting in this vast universe. Since space was the first created item, space itself is the subtle energy from which this world is developed by God. Space must be the first item because without space, nothing can exist even for imagination.
If space is nothing or emptiness, further creation from space should have been a chain of nothingness only and we should not hear that something even exists. Hence, the first and fundamental item called energy was created by God and such process of creation of energy by the unimaginable God must be also unimaginable because in the world, there is no example for an unimaginable item producing an imaginable item. Both space and energy are said to be the first created item directly by God Himself as the direct cause (Ātmana ākāśaḥ…, tat tejaḥ…-Veda).

It is told that from space, molecules of gaseous state of matter came out and then fire came out followed by liquid and solid states of matter. This looks odd since it would have been better if the chain told is space –fire – gas – liquid – solid – plants – food – awareness. The reason is that subtle energy or space gives gross energy or fire and then on condensation of energy, matter in three states results, finally generating awareness. But why this normal expected chain was not told? The reason is that the told sequence represents the history of the actual evolution of the universe.
First, space or subtle energy was created and from space, galaxies of stars were generated. The stars contain molecules of gaseous state of matter radiating gross energy. Some say that plasma state containing ions existed, but ions are not different from the mono atomic gas molecules since an atom becomes ion by losing electrons. Hence, space – gas – fire indicates this astro-history. Afterwards, gas becomes liquid and solid on further condensation of energy. Since space or subtle energy generated gaseous state of matter directly, it is proved that matter is condensed energy.

God said in the Veda that the solid earth generated plants and food is generated from plants. This clearly means that God is categorically saying that human beings must take vegetarian food only prohibiting non-vegetarian food. Some people say that even plants have life and hence, the vegetarian food must be also non-vegetarian food. It is true that plants have life due to respiration (inhaling oxygen and exhaling carbon-dioxide). Respiration is only an inert mechanical process and not awareness at all. Food (Annamaya kośa) and respiration (Prāṇamaya kośa) are inert only and have no awareness. Only awareness (mind or Manomaya kośa and intelligence or Vijñānamaya kośa) can undergo suffering when harmed. Hence, sin does not come when a plant (a Botanical example) is eaten. Sin comes only when birds, animals etc., (zoological examples) are eaten. You can find neuro-spots (awareness) even in unicellular amoeba of zoology, but not in multicellular tree of botany.

Some people say that there are some responses from plants for some actions, which indicate awareness in plants also. This is only falsity of cause through illusory inference (Hetvābhāsa). On seeing smoke, we infer fire, but on seeing fog smoke, the inference of fire becomes false. Even in the inert field, some actions appear as if the actions are guided by awareness. Newton said that there will be equal and opposite reaction for every action, which applies to inert items also and this does not mean that there is awareness in such items to react with vengeance! In a living zoological example, not only response to certain action is found, but also, the nervous system that causes motivation of awareness is physically found.
In a Botanical example, such nervous system is not found even though certain actions and reactions are found leading us to the illusion of presence of awareness. In both botanical and zoological examples, the response of the reaction to action is common like the smoke and fog are one and the same water in the state of vapour. But, in a zoological example, the nervous system is found practically like fire is found through smoke. In a Botanical example, the nervous system is not found like the fire not found in the case of fog smoke.

In the process of creation, the boundary of the universe becomes infinite to the imaginable soul since the soul can’t touch it as the universe is constantly expanding with unimaginable speed. At the same time, the unimaginable God situated after the boundary remains unimaginable for the souls being beyond the space or universe. When Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna that His creation is infinite, it refers to the soul Arjuna, even though for Kṛṣṇa, the space is finite by which Kṛṣṇa remains omniscient knowing everything including the boundary of the universe. The soul can’t be omniscient because at least, it does not know the boundary of space and the unimaginable God beyond it. This makes the soul to be disciplined in its life maintaining reverence to God based on such difference.
The unimaginable God is the absolute reality and the creation is only a relative reality because one absolute reality can’t create and destroy another absolute reality. One absolute reality can’t perform any miracle in another absolute reality and this fact is proved since God does several miracles in this creation. Hence, creation is like the imaginary world of the soul for God and at the same time, creation is like the real world of the soul giving full and real entertainment to God. This simultaneous nature of the creation for God is possible due to the omnipotence of God. The soul can’t maintain such dual nature of its imaginary world and hence can’t get real entertainment with its imaginary world. Therefore, the creation is unreal by its essential nature and is absolutely real by its acquired nature (since the creation becomes absolutely real due to the gifted absolute reality of God).
Hence, in the case of the omnipotent God, Śaṅkara (saying that creation is relatively real), and Rāmānuja and Madhva (saying that creation is absolutely real) are simultaneously correct. In the case of the soul, the creation is on par with the soul in the aspect of reality (since the soul is a part of creation). The relatively real creation becomes absolutely real for the relatively real soul since one relative reality is absolutely real for another relative reality. Hence, Rāmānuja and Madhva are correct about this aspect of reality in the case of the soul (who say that the relatively real creation is absolutely real for the relatively real soul).
Śaṅkara is correct about this aspect of reality in the case of God (who says that the creation is only relatively real for the absolutely real God). The concept of Śaṅkara is apparent modification (Vivarta) like water modified as wave. The concept of Rāmānuja and Madhva is real modification (Pariṇāma) like milk modified into curd. When we say that world is unreal by itself and God is absolutely real by Himself (in the context of creation, dissolution and miracles), Śaṅkara is correlated. When we say that i) the world is absolutely real due to the gifted absolute reality of God giving full entertainment to God and ii) the world is real for the soul due to whole-part relationship, Rāmānuja and Madhva are correlated.

Scientists say that this creation happened by itself based on the concept of evolution. Scientists say that in course of evolution, the human being is developed from monkey. In such evolution, the tail is lost completely due to its lack of utility in view of well-developed hands and hence, the tail disappeared. The point here is that in course of evolution, all the monkeys should have disappeared because every monkey is developed into a human being. At present, we also find monkeys along with human beings and in these monkeys, the tails did not disappear. Hence, the theory of evolution can’t be taken as the completely successful doctrine.
We don’t mind to agree to the theory of evolution provided you accept the existence of God as the supervisor. One western scientist told this point in a beautiful way, which is “we agree with all the theories of science in accepting that the coffee results from the process of mixing hot milk with hot decoction of coffee powder. We simply add just one more point, which is that there is a person doing all these works of heating, mixing etc., in the preparation of coffee for the sake of his enjoyment of a cup of coffee”. This means that no scientific law is refuted by accepting the existence of a supervisor, who is directing and controlling the experiment in the laboratory.


There are two views of creation. i) In one view (Vivarta), the creation is created like the magic show given by a magician (In this example, the magician is assumed as if creating the magic show without the help of anybody and anything through pre-arrangement. A better example will be that of a divine person or demon creating something just by will. In this concept, the magician or divine person or demon is both the intellectual cause as well as the material cause (Abhinna nimittopādāna kāraṇaṃ Brahma). ii) In the second view (Pariṇāma), both intellectual and material causes exist separately (A pot maker is the intellectual cause and the separately procured mud is the material cause.).
To accommodate both views, the process of creation is divided into two steps: - i) When the unimaginable God created the first item called space or subtle energy, the first view is considered because before the creation, there was nobody and nothing except unimaginable God. ii) After the creation of space, all the subsequent items came one by one with the design work of God. Here the space or subtle energy is the material cause that was already created and available like mud, and God is only the intellectual cause like the pot maker. By both these steps, both the views are absorbed with correlation. This means that God created mud as the first item and then proceeded with the creation of mud pot following the process of technology. When technology is available, a good administrator will use it and he will not unnecessarily use his miraculous power again to create the mud pot without using the already created mud.



Science treats the subtle energy itself as the creator in the place of God. Unless some awareness exists, the inert items can’t form this beautiful and well-designed universe just based on the probability of actions and reactions. Moreover, when energy is an imaginable item, it demands the existence of its cause since the imaginable items of the creation are fitted in an endless chain of cause and product. It is the wisest logic to take the unimaginable item or God as the ultimate cause having unimaginable awareness. If we take the unimaginable item as the ultimate cause, such unimaginable item cannot have birth and therefore it can’t have a different item as its cause and this will end the problem of ad-infinitum. If we say that God is having imaginable awareness, it becomes absurd since before creation, matter and inert energy were absent to create imaginable awareness. The intelligence and thinking of God need not to be attributed to imaginable awareness because the unimaginable nature or power of God indicates omnipotence with the help of which unimaginable awareness is possible. This means that God need not have the imaginable awareness to think because He can think due to His omnipotence. Similarly, He burns all the creation due to His omnipotence and He need not be fire or radiant energy to burn the world.


Since God is omnipotent, all impossible ways are possible for Him and hence, there is no need of the application of worldly logic to God and the Veda says this very clearly (naiṣā tarkeṇa matirāpanīyā). Any logical or illogical way can be accepted in the case of God and the only criterion is that God will act in anyway provided that way brings the climax of greatness to God to keep up the meaning of His name Brahman. Brahman means the greatest (Bṛhi-vṛddhau). We shall not use the omnipotence of God everywhere blindly.
A wise administrator is he, who breaks the rule whenever there is no other way. If things can be achieved through rules, a foolish administrator blinded with ego breaks the rules to do even normal things that can be done in a normal way following the rules. Omnipotence shall not be exhibited to do an improper action. A person is capable of cutting anything with his knife and when somebody asks him whether he can cut the head of his child, the foolish person shall not cut the head of his child to prove his omnipotence to cut anything! Hence, with these two logical limitations, omnipotence of God can be used to achieve the greatest greatness for God.
User avatar
By LuckyR
#424182
dattaswami wrote: October 7th, 2022, 1:18 am It is a very clear point that creation of energy was the first process of God and hence, energy was the first item that was created by God. From energy, matter and awareness came out with the help of which various inert and non-inert items were designed by God resulting in this vast universe. Since space was the first created item, space itself is the subtle energy from which this world is developed by God. Space must be the first item because without space, nothing can exist even for imagination.
If space is nothing or emptiness, further creation from space should have been a chain of nothingness only and we should not hear that something even exists. Hence, the first and fundamental item called energy was created by God and such process of creation of energy by the unimaginable God must be also unimaginable because in the world, there is no example for an unimaginable item producing an imaginable item. Both space and energy are said to be the first created item directly by God Himself as the direct cause (Ātmana ākāśaḥ…, tat tejaḥ…-Veda).

It is told that from space, molecules of gaseous state of matter came out and then fire came out followed by liquid and solid states of matter. This looks odd since it would have been better if the chain told is space –fire – gas – liquid – solid – plants – food – awareness. The reason is that subtle energy or space gives gross energy or fire and then on condensation of energy, matter in three states results, finally generating awareness. But why this normal expected chain was not told? The reason is that the told sequence represents the history of the actual evolution of the universe.
First, space or subtle energy was created and from space, galaxies of stars were generated. The stars contain molecules of gaseous state of matter radiating gross energy. Some say that plasma state containing ions existed, but ions are not different from the mono atomic gas molecules since an atom becomes ion by losing electrons. Hence, space – gas – fire indicates this astro-history. Afterwards, gas becomes liquid and solid on further condensation of energy. Since space or subtle energy generated gaseous state of matter directly, it is proved that matter is condensed energy.

God said in the Veda that the solid earth generated plants and food is generated from plants. This clearly means that God is categorically saying that human beings must take vegetarian food only prohibiting non-vegetarian food. Some people say that even plants have life and hence, the vegetarian food must be also non-vegetarian food. It is true that plants have life due to respiration (inhaling oxygen and exhaling carbon-dioxide). Respiration is only an inert mechanical process and not awareness at all. Food (Annamaya kośa) and respiration (Prāṇamaya kośa) are inert only and have no awareness. Only awareness (mind or Manomaya kośa and intelligence or Vijñānamaya kośa) can undergo suffering when harmed. Hence, sin does not come when a plant (a Botanical example) is eaten. Sin comes only when birds, animals etc., (zoological examples) are eaten. You can find neuro-spots (awareness) even in unicellular amoeba of zoology, but not in multicellular tree of botany.

Some people say that there are some responses from plants for some actions, which indicate awareness in plants also. This is only falsity of cause through illusory inference (Hetvābhāsa). On seeing smoke, we infer fire, but on seeing fog smoke, the inference of fire becomes false. Even in the inert field, some actions appear as if the actions are guided by awareness. Newton said that there will be equal and opposite reaction for every action, which applies to inert items also and this does not mean that there is awareness in such items to react with vengeance! In a living zoological example, not only response to certain action is found, but also, the nervous system that causes motivation of awareness is physically found.
In a Botanical example, such nervous system is not found even though certain actions and reactions are found leading us to the illusion of presence of awareness. In both botanical and zoological examples, the response of the reaction to action is common like the smoke and fog are one and the same water in the state of vapour. But, in a zoological example, the nervous system is found practically like fire is found through smoke. In a Botanical example, the nervous system is not found like the fire not found in the case of fog smoke.

In the process of creation, the boundary of the universe becomes infinite to the imaginable soul since the soul can’t touch it as the universe is constantly expanding with unimaginable speed. At the same time, the unimaginable God situated after the boundary remains unimaginable for the souls being beyond the space or universe. When Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna that His creation is infinite, it refers to the soul Arjuna, even though for Kṛṣṇa, the space is finite by which Kṛṣṇa remains omniscient knowing everything including the boundary of the universe. The soul can’t be omniscient because at least, it does not know the boundary of space and the unimaginable God beyond it. This makes the soul to be disciplined in its life maintaining reverence to God based on such difference.
The unimaginable God is the absolute reality and the creation is only a relative reality because one absolute reality can’t create and destroy another absolute reality. One absolute reality can’t perform any miracle in another absolute reality and this fact is proved since God does several miracles in this creation. Hence, creation is like the imaginary world of the soul for God and at the same time, creation is like the real world of the soul giving full and real entertainment to God. This simultaneous nature of the creation for God is possible due to the omnipotence of God. The soul can’t maintain such dual nature of its imaginary world and hence can’t get real entertainment with its imaginary world. Therefore, the creation is unreal by its essential nature and is absolutely real by its acquired nature (since the creation becomes absolutely real due to the gifted absolute reality of God).
Hence, in the case of the omnipotent God, Śaṅkara (saying that creation is relatively real), and Rāmānuja and Madhva (saying that creation is absolutely real) are simultaneously correct. In the case of the soul, the creation is on par with the soul in the aspect of reality (since the soul is a part of creation). The relatively real creation becomes absolutely real for the relatively real soul since one relative reality is absolutely real for another relative reality. Hence, Rāmānuja and Madhva are correct about this aspect of reality in the case of the soul (who say that the relatively real creation is absolutely real for the relatively real soul).
Śaṅkara is correct about this aspect of reality in the case of God (who says that the creation is only relatively real for the absolutely real God). The concept of Śaṅkara is apparent modification (Vivarta) like water modified as wave. The concept of Rāmānuja and Madhva is real modification (Pariṇāma) like milk modified into curd. When we say that world is unreal by itself and God is absolutely real by Himself (in the context of creation, dissolution and miracles), Śaṅkara is correlated. When we say that i) the world is absolutely real due to the gifted absolute reality of God giving full entertainment to God and ii) the world is real for the soul due to whole-part relationship, Rāmānuja and Madhva are correlated.

Scientists say that this creation happened by itself based on the concept of evolution. Scientists say that in course of evolution, the human being is developed from monkey. In such evolution, the tail is lost completely due to its lack of utility in view of well-developed hands and hence, the tail disappeared. The point here is that in course of evolution, all the monkeys should have disappeared because every monkey is developed into a human being. At present, we also find monkeys along with human beings and in these monkeys, the tails did not disappear. Hence, the theory of evolution can’t be taken as the completely successful doctrine.
We don’t mind to agree to the theory of evolution provided you accept the existence of God as the supervisor. One western scientist told this point in a beautiful way, which is “we agree with all the theories of science in accepting that the coffee results from the process of mixing hot milk with hot decoction of coffee powder. We simply add just one more point, which is that there is a person doing all these works of heating, mixing etc., in the preparation of coffee for the sake of his enjoyment of a cup of coffee”. This means that no scientific law is refuted by accepting the existence of a supervisor, who is directing and controlling the experiment in the laboratory.


There are two views of creation. i) In one view (Vivarta), the creation is created like the magic show given by a magician (In this example, the magician is assumed as if creating the magic show without the help of anybody and anything through pre-arrangement. A better example will be that of a divine person or demon creating something just by will. In this concept, the magician or divine person or demon is both the intellectual cause as well as the material cause (Abhinna nimittopādāna kāraṇaṃ Brahma). ii) In the second view (Pariṇāma), both intellectual and material causes exist separately (A pot maker is the intellectual cause and the separately procured mud is the material cause.).
To accommodate both views, the process of creation is divided into two steps: - i) When the unimaginable God created the first item called space or subtle energy, the first view is considered because before the creation, there was nobody and nothing except unimaginable God. ii) After the creation of space, all the subsequent items came one by one with the design work of God. Here the space or subtle energy is the material cause that was already created and available like mud, and God is only the intellectual cause like the pot maker. By both these steps, both the views are absorbed with correlation. This means that God created mud as the first item and then proceeded with the creation of mud pot following the process of technology. When technology is available, a good administrator will use it and he will not unnecessarily use his miraculous power again to create the mud pot without using the already created mud.



Science treats the subtle energy itself as the creator in the place of God. Unless some awareness exists, the inert items can’t form this beautiful and well-designed universe just based on the probability of actions and reactions. Moreover, when energy is an imaginable item, it demands the existence of its cause since the imaginable items of the creation are fitted in an endless chain of cause and product. It is the wisest logic to take the unimaginable item or God as the ultimate cause having unimaginable awareness. If we take the unimaginable item as the ultimate cause, such unimaginable item cannot have birth and therefore it can’t have a different item as its cause and this will end the problem of ad-infinitum. If we say that God is having imaginable awareness, it becomes absurd since before creation, matter and inert energy were absent to create imaginable awareness. The intelligence and thinking of God need not to be attributed to imaginable awareness because the unimaginable nature or power of God indicates omnipotence with the help of which unimaginable awareness is possible. This means that God need not have the imaginable awareness to think because He can think due to His omnipotence. Similarly, He burns all the creation due to His omnipotence and He need not be fire or radiant energy to burn the world.


Since God is omnipotent, all impossible ways are possible for Him and hence, there is no need of the application of worldly logic to God and the Veda says this very clearly (naiṣā tarkeṇa matirāpanīyā). Any logical or illogical way can be accepted in the case of God and the only criterion is that God will act in anyway provided that way brings the climax of greatness to God to keep up the meaning of His name Brahman. Brahman means the greatest (Bṛhi-vṛddhau). We shall not use the omnipotence of God everywhere blindly.
A wise administrator is he, who breaks the rule whenever there is no other way. If things can be achieved through rules, a foolish administrator blinded with ego breaks the rules to do even normal things that can be done in a normal way following the rules. Omnipotence shall not be exhibited to do an improper action. A person is capable of cutting anything with his knife and when somebody asks him whether he can cut the head of his child, the foolish person shall not cut the head of his child to prove his omnipotence to cut anything! Hence, with these two logical limitations, omnipotence of God can be used to achieve the greatest greatness for God.
A not unusual set of beliefs. Do you have a question?
User avatar
By Tommo
#424185
I got a bit choked up on my lunch when I read the first line. Starting and argument with a belief doesn’t set a good tone.
If I have no belief regarding a god where does that place me for discussion?
By the way, not believing in a god or just ignoring the topic isn’t proof of anything just the same as your belief doesn’t set the truth to follow.
I like the idea that some don’t accept definitive answers to hard questions (or easy ones). It’s always in order to question the most convincing and reserve judgement. Life still goes on. Even the philosophers only come up with suggestions.
User avatar
By Consul
#424271
dattaswami wrote: October 7th, 2022, 1:18 am It is a very clear point that creation of energy was the first process of God and hence, energy was the first item that was created by God.
I presume God's creation of energy was one of his famous magical speech-acts à la: "And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light."

However, "to speak" means "to utter or pronounce words or articulate sounds" (Oxford English Dictionary); but how could God as an immaterial person speak or say anything, given that he has no vocal apparatus that can produce sounds, and that there can be no (audible) sounds in an environment where there is no air (or any other physical medium such as water)? God is a nonphysical being not living in any physical environment, so it is nonsensical to speak of divine utterances or speech-acts. Such a God cannot possibly speak! What he can do is think, so theists can consistently speak of divine thoughts or thought-acts instead: "And God thought, “Let there be light,” and there was light."

Energy couldn't have been "the first item that was created by God," because energy is not an independent substance but a dependent attribute of some physical stuff or thing. Therefore, not even God could first have created nothing but "pure energy" without any substantial entity that possesses the energy. Where there is energy, there must be some energized matter or material substance!

QUOTE:
"Energy is not a stuff. …Rather, energy is a real, quantitative property…. Not every property of an object consists of the object's possessing some sort of stuff. For example, to be happy is not to be filled with a large quantity of a special kind of stuff: 'happiness'. A body's velocity does not measure the amount of a stuff that it possesses. Likewise, neither a body's kinetic energy nor a field's energy is stuff. ...Since energy is a property, any energy (like velocity) cannot exist without something possessing it."

(Lange, Marc. An Introduction to the Philosophy of Physics: Locality, Fields, Energy, and Mass. Oxford: Blackwell, 2002. p. 152)
:QUOTE
Location: Germany
By dattaswami
#424360
Consul wrote: October 7th, 2022, 5:47 pm
dattaswami wrote: October 7th, 2022, 1:18 am It is a very clear point that creation of energy was the first process of God and hence, energy was the first item that was created by God.


Energy couldn't have been "the first item that was created by God," because energy is not an independent substance but a dependent attribute of some physical stuff or thing. Therefore, not even God could first have created nothing but "pure energy" without any substantial entity that possesses the energy. Where there is energy, there must be some energized matter or material substance!
Can you please clearly what is your point here. Is it that energy cannot come from God and energy would have created from other item like matter. If it so then who created matter? Like this endless chain will result.
User avatar
By Consul
#424437
dattaswami wrote: October 9th, 2022, 2:47 am
Consul wrote: October 7th, 2022, 5:47 pmEnergy couldn't have been "the first item that was created by God," because energy is not an independent substance but a dependent attribute of some physical stuff or thing. Therefore, not even God could first have created nothing but "pure energy" without any substantial entity that possesses the energy. Where there is energy, there must be some energized matter or material substance!
Can you please clearly what is your point here. Is it that energy cannot come from God and energy would have created from other item like matter. If it so then who created matter? Like this endless chain will result.
You say God is eternal, I say Matter or Nature is eternal. (No, I don't think the Big Bang is the absolute beginning of the physical world.)

My point is that God couldn't have created energy/mass without creating something else at the same time whose energy/mass it is, i.e. something else (some substantial entity) which has energy/mass.

Anyway, I have absolutely no idea how a physical world could "come from God", who is a nonphysical being. The theists are totally clueless too! All they can say is that the divine act of creation is an inexplicable supernatural act of magic: God "said"/thought "Let there be matter&energy!", and—abracadabra!—matter&energy popped into being out of nothing. Does this make any rational sense? No, it doesn't!
Location: Germany
By dattaswami
#424440
Consul wrote: October 9th, 2022, 8:42 pm
dattaswami wrote: October 9th, 2022, 2:47 am
Consul wrote: October 7th, 2022, 5:47 pmEnergy couldn't have been "the first item that was created by God," because energy is not an independent substance but a dependent attribute of some physical stuff or thing. Therefore, not even God could first have created nothing but "pure energy" without any substantial entity that possesses the energy. Where there is energy, there must be some energized matter or material substance!
Can you please clearly what is your point here. Is it that energy cannot come from God and energy would have created from other item like matter. If it so then who created matter? Like this endless chain will result.
You say God is eternal, I say Matter or Nature is eternal. (No, I don't think the Big Bang is the absolute beginning of the physical world.)

My point is that God couldn't have created energy/mass without creating something else at the same time whose energy/mass it is, i.e. something else (some substantial entity) which has energy/mass.

Anyway, I have absolutely no idea how a physical world could "come from God", who is a nonphysical being. The theists are totally clueless too! All they can say is that the divine act of creation is an inexplicable supernatural act of magic: God "said"/thought "Let there be matter&energy!", and—abracadabra!—matter&energy popped into being out of nothing. Does this make any rational sense? No, it doesn't!
God is unimaginable. The link between the soul and world with God is also unimaginable because a link between two imaginable items only becomes imaginable.

The actions of God are also unimaginable since the actions of imaginable items are only imaginable. The only imaginable region is about all the items of the world and relationships between those items and the dead boundary of this world (imaginable region) is space. In this imaginable region there may be some temporary unimaginable regions, which are not analyzed today but one day or other those regions will be analyzed by the science. The unimaginable region for an ignorant person may be simultaneously imaginable to a scholar like the technology of an electronic instrument. Of course, even today, there are certain unimaginable regions even for scholars in the deeper planes of the science of world. Such planes will be known to scholars (Scientists) after some time by the grace of God, because such planes are within the limits of the space. The scientist is misled at this precise point.

Some time back, he did not know certain deeper planes of the world. Now he succeeded in analyzing those unknown planes. Due to this, scientist becomes blind with ego. Based on this success, he feels that he will analyze the final truth of the unimaginable limits of infinite space (world) in future on some day. This is not correct. The reason for this is that the planes which were not known to him and which are now known to him are within the limits of space only. Still, there are more deeper planes which are not known as on today. In the case of these planes, I assure the success for the scientist because these planes are also within the limits of space. But he should know that on any day he cannot cross the dead limits of space and God is beyond such space.

Since God is the generator of space (Atmana Akashah..Veda), we can touch the edge of God only in the unimaginable limits of the space. We can say that once we have touched the limits of space we have touched God.
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#424538
The old "mysterious ways" line. It never fails. The above is just dogma.

The link between the soul and God is unimaginable because it is non-existent. God is so unimaginable that it defies even a sci-fi treatment because God, by definition, is bathed in mysterianism. Yet, it's surprising how many seem sure that they know "his" mind. The reason is clear - they mistake aspects of their own mind for God. By passing responsibility to a separate aspect of one's consciousness, one is not subject to the the same level of doubts.

One can have coherent self-conversations between the emotional aspects of oneself and the wise aspects of oneself. It's all happening in theists' minds, but they believe that the universe/God is speaking to them.
User avatar
By LuckyR
#424585
dattaswami wrote: October 9th, 2022, 9:02 pm
Consul wrote: October 9th, 2022, 8:42 pm
dattaswami wrote: October 9th, 2022, 2:47 am
Consul wrote: October 7th, 2022, 5:47 pmEnergy couldn't have been "the first item that was created by God," because energy is not an independent substance but a dependent attribute of some physical stuff or thing. Therefore, not even God could first have created nothing but "pure energy" without any substantial entity that possesses the energy. Where there is energy, there must be some energized matter or material substance!
Can you please clearly what is your point here. Is it that energy cannot come from God and energy would have created from other item like matter. If it so then who created matter? Like this endless chain will result.
You say God is eternal, I say Matter or Nature is eternal. (No, I don't think the Big Bang is the absolute beginning of the physical world.)

My point is that God couldn't have created energy/mass without creating something else at the same time whose energy/mass it is, i.e. something else (some substantial entity) which has energy/mass.

Anyway, I have absolutely no idea how a physical world could "come from God", who is a nonphysical being. The theists are totally clueless too! All they can say is that the divine act of creation is an inexplicable supernatural act of magic: God "said"/thought "Let there be matter&energy!", and—abracadabra!—matter&energy popped into being out of nothing. Does this make any rational sense? No, it doesn't!
God is unimaginable. The link between the soul and world with God is also unimaginable because a link between two imaginable items only becomes imaginable.

The actions of God are also unimaginable since the actions of imaginable items are only imaginable. The only imaginable region is about all the items of the world and relationships between those items and the dead boundary of this world (imaginable region) is space. In this imaginable region there may be some temporary unimaginable regions, which are not analyzed today but one day or other those regions will be analyzed by the science. The unimaginable region for an ignorant person may be simultaneously imaginable to a scholar like the technology of an electronic instrument. Of course, even today, there are certain unimaginable regions even for scholars in the deeper planes of the science of world. Such planes will be known to scholars (Scientists) after some time by the grace of God, because such planes are within the limits of the space. The scientist is misled at this precise point.

Some time back, he did not know certain deeper planes of the world. Now he succeeded in analyzing those unknown planes. Due to this, scientist becomes blind with ego. Based on this success, he feels that he will analyze the final truth of the unimaginable limits of infinite space (world) in future on some day. This is not correct. The reason for this is that the planes which were not known to him and which are now known to him are within the limits of space only. Still, there are more deeper planes which are not known as on today. In the case of these planes, I assure the success for the scientist because these planes are also within the limits of space. But he should know that on any day he cannot cross the dead limits of space and God is beyond such space.

Since God is the generator of space (Atmana Akashah..Veda), we can touch the edge of God only in the unimaginable limits of the space. We can say that once we have touched the limits of space we have touched God.
It is a common belief that gods are unimaginably powerful and knowledgeable. How knowledgeable do you recon? For example, a god's knowledge compared to a human's would be like a human's compared to what? A dog? A frog? An earthworm? A mushroom? A bacteria? What's your understanding?
User avatar
By 3017Metaphysician
#424587
Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 1:39 am The old "mysterious ways" line. It never fails. The above is just dogma.

The link between the soul and God is unimaginable because it is non-existent. God is so unimaginable that it defies even a sci-fi treatment because God, by definition, is bathed in mysterianism. Yet, it's surprising how many seem sure that they know "his" mind. The reason is clear - they mistake aspects of their own mind for God. By passing responsibility to a separate aspect of one's consciousness, one is not subject to the the same level of doubts.

One can have coherent self-conversations between the emotional aspects of oneself and the wise aspects of oneself. It's all happening in theists' minds, but they believe that the universe/God is speaking to them.

What is happening in your own mind is the same phenomenon that's happening in the Theist mind. Please share what you think is the difference?
User avatar
By 3017Metaphysician
#424588
Consul wrote: October 9th, 2022, 8:42 pm
dattaswami wrote: October 9th, 2022, 2:47 am
Consul wrote: October 7th, 2022, 5:47 pmEnergy couldn't have been "the first item that was created by God," because energy is not an independent substance but a dependent attribute of some physical stuff or thing. Therefore, not even God could first have created nothing but "pure energy" without any substantial entity that possesses the energy. Where there is energy, there must be some energized matter or material substance!
Can you please clearly what is your point here. Is it that energy cannot come from God and energy would have created from other item like matter. If it so then who created matter? Like this endless chain will result.
You say God is eternal, I say Matter or Nature is eternal. (No, I don't think the Big Bang is the absolute beginning of the physical world.)

My point is that God couldn't have created energy/mass without creating something else at the same time whose energy/mass it is, i.e. something else (some substantial entity) which has energy/mass.

Anyway, I have absolutely no idea how a physical world could "come from God", who is a nonphysical being. The theists are totally clueless too! All they can say is that the divine act of creation is an inexplicable supernatural act of magic: God "said"/thought "Let there be matter&energy!", and—abracadabra!—matter&energy popped into being out of nothing. Does this make any rational sense? No, it doesn't!
If one were in desperate need to get comfort from logic, the part that makes sense is that the super-natural just means something beyond the usual categories of human reason is needed to explain the cosmos. In other words, an understanding of its existence and properties lies outside the usual categories of rational human thought, and/or beyond natural empirical phenomena and observation. We are all in good company though, remember, Hawking wanted to know what breaths fire into his equation's :D

I would agree with physicist Davies there:

But in the end a rational explanation for the world in the sense of a closed and complete system of logical truths is almost certainly impossible. We are barred from ultimate knowledge, from ultimate explanation, by the very rules of reasoning that prompt us to seek such an explanation in the first place. If we wish to progress beyond, we have to embrace a different concept of "understanding" from that of rational explanation.

You think it's the 'super-natural'?
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#424600
3017Metaphysician wrote: October 11th, 2022, 1:23 pm
Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 1:39 am The old "mysterious ways" line. It never fails. The above is just dogma.

The link between the soul and God is unimaginable because it is non-existent. God is so unimaginable that it defies even a sci-fi treatment because God, by definition, is bathed in mysterianism. Yet, it's surprising how many seem sure that they know "his" mind. The reason is clear - they mistake aspects of their own mind for God. By passing responsibility to a separate aspect of one's consciousness, one is not subject to the the same level of doubts.

One can have coherent self-conversations between the emotional aspects of oneself and the wise aspects of oneself. It's all happening in theists' minds, but they believe that the universe/God is speaking to them.

What is happening in your own mind is the same phenomenon that's happening in the Theist mind. Please share what you think is the difference?
Awareness of the dynamics rather than relying on superstitious explanations.
User avatar
By 3017Metaphysician
#424670
Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 4:01 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: October 11th, 2022, 1:23 pm
Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 1:39 am The old "mysterious ways" line. It never fails. The above is just dogma.

The link between the soul and God is unimaginable because it is non-existent. God is so unimaginable that it defies even a sci-fi treatment because God, by definition, is bathed in mysterianism. Yet, it's surprising how many seem sure that they know "his" mind. The reason is clear - they mistake aspects of their own mind for God. By passing responsibility to a separate aspect of one's consciousness, one is not subject to the the same level of doubts.

One can have coherent self-conversations between the emotional aspects of oneself and the wise aspects of oneself. It's all happening in theists' minds, but they believe that the universe/God is speaking to them.

What is happening in your own mind is the same phenomenon that's happening in the Theist mind. Please share what you think is the difference?
Awareness of the dynamics rather than relying on superstitious explanations.
I'm not following you there. What "dynamics" created the universe?

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