Re: What could make morality objective?
Posted: August 24th, 2020, 6:57 am
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GE Morton wrote: ↑August 23rd, 2020, 10:56 amA dogmatic statement is one unsupported by evidence or argument, such as your "As all such claims must be." My claim that morality can be objective, on the other hand, has been supported by extensive argument. You might wish to read the back thread and rebut those arguments.Can you provide a simplified argument that would lock any opposing view into an automated exploration of those applicable arguments, so that by the strength of those arguments, objective morality can be made evident?
arjand wrote: ↑January 19th, 2021, 6:46 pmPending GEM's response, here's my take on the issue.GE Morton wrote: ↑August 23rd, 2020, 10:56 amA dogmatic statement is one unsupported by evidence or argument, such as your "As all such claims must be." My claim that morality can be objective, on the other hand, has been supported by extensive argument. You might wish to read the back thread and rebut those arguments.Can you provide a simplified argument that would lock any opposing view into an automated exploration of those applicable arguments, so that by the strength of those arguments, objective morality can be made evident?
arjand wrote: ↑January 19th, 2021, 6:46 pmI have no idea what might "lock any opposing view into an automated exploration" of those arguments. The best I can do is reprise them.
Can you provide a simplified argument that would lock any opposing view into an automated exploration of those applicable arguments, so that by the strength of those arguments, objective morality can be made evident?
GE Morton wrote:...we can determine that by observing his behavior. We can see how he invests his time, efforts, money; what goods he seeks to acquire, what goals he pursues, and what evils he seeks to avoid. So we take Alfie's welfare to consist in satisfying whatever interests he has, as revealed by his actions.Yes, and we can also simply ask him what he wants.
Since the aim of a public morality is bringing about an empirical state of affairs, its rules will be objective. It is empirically determinable whether or not an act by an agent reduces or increases the well-being of another agent, or does neither.In principle this is true. So, in principle, for people who have equal knowledge of the empirical evidence as to which prior events cause which later events, there should be no debate as to what is the optimal set of laws for a society. i.e. there should be none of the classic (for example) left versus right debates between those people, so long as they all agree that the ultimate aim is to maximize the welfare of the citizens in the way you've described. i.e. according to their own definitions as to what their goals are.
GE Morton wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2021, 3:10 pm Since the aim of a public morality is bringing about an empirical state of affairs, its rules will be objective. It is empirically determinable whether or not an act by an agent reduces or increases the well-being of another agent,It's empirically determinable whether I have a feeling of unease, but my feeling of unease isn't objective.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑February 4th, 2021, 10:38 amIt is empirically determinable by you, but not publicly determinable. It must be publicly determinable to be objective.GE Morton wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2021, 3:10 pm Since the aim of a public morality is bringing about an empirical state of affairs, its rules will be objective. It is empirically determinable whether or not an act by an agent reduces or increases the well-being of another agent,It's empirically determinable whether I have a feeling of unease, but my feeling of unease isn't objective.
GE Morton wrote: ↑February 4th, 2021, 1:36 pmWhether anything amounts to well-being is just the same though. You can't publicly see anyone's feeling of well-being. You can publicly see them state that something creates a feeling of well-being in them, and you can observe states that _you_ count as well-being, but that's just the same for my feeling of unease. You can observe me make statements about it, and you can take observable states to count as it, but you can't actually observe my feeling.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑February 4th, 2021, 10:38 amIt is empirically determinable by you, but not publicly determinable. It must be publicly determinable to be objective.GE Morton wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2021, 3:10 pm Since the aim of a public morality is bringing about an empirical state of affairs, its rules will be objective. It is empirically determinable whether or not an act by an agent reduces or increases the well-being of another agent,It's empirically determinable whether I have a feeling of unease, but my feeling of unease isn't objective.
Greta wrote: ↑February 4th, 2021, 7:20 pm A strong enough totalitarian dictator could make any morality he, she or it wanted to be "objective". The public will all enthusiastically agree because anyone with a variant opinion will "disappear".I couldn't agree more. In discussions will moral objectivists, I've often been informed that moral concerns apply only to humans - as a matter of fact.
Otherwise, morality is simply an aspect of the argy-bargy of social animals. Might most often is accepted as right. Take, for instance, human attitudes towards animals. It's considered right in many circles that non-human animals be objectified, treated as though they had no sensibilities. Our laws regarding animal treatment and control reflects inherently speciesist attitudes. There will come a time when humans realise that their treatment of animals was morally wrong and needlessly cruel, just as European descendants gradually came to the realisation that their treatment of indigenous people was morally wrong and needlessly cruel.
But, for now, objectification and harsh treatment of other species is well accepted in all societies, and seems likely will continue until so many animals have been wiped out that that scarcity will render living specimens more valuable than dead ones.
GE Morton wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2021, 3:10 pmThat it totalitarianism, not morality.arjand wrote: ↑January 19th, 2021, 6:46 pmI have no idea what might "lock any opposing view into an automated exploration" of those arguments. The best I can do is reprise them.
Can you provide a simplified argument that would lock any opposing view into an automated exploration of those applicable arguments, so that by the strength of those arguments, objective morality can be made evident?
First, by "morality," I refer to a set of rules governing interactions between moral agents in a social setting. I further take the aim of those rules to be enabling all agents in that setting (the "moral field") to maximize their welfare, insofar as the well-being of any given agent can be affected by the actions of other agents.
So that's the gist of it.
Sculptor1 wrote: ↑February 5th, 2021, 9:27 am No moral question can ever be answered with the objective method.Agreed. And yet the delusion of moral objectivism persists. The more I witness the spectacle of intellectual contortion required to keep believing there are moral facts, the more I'm convinced that we're dealing with a quasi-religious belief - as hard to shake off as any other.
Peter Holmes wrote:As I understand it, GEM's argument is that morality can be objective in the sense that the consistency of an action with a goal is a factual matter, so that an assertion of consistency - action X is consistent with goal Y - is factual and so has a truth-value independent from opinion. (I've suggested this echoes Sam Harris and Matt Dillahunty's 'subjective goal / objective means' argument, which I think is unsound.)When you say "which I think is unsound" does that imply that you think GEM's argument that "morality can be objective in the sense that the consistency of an action with a goal is a factual matter" is unsound?