Philosophy Discussion Forums

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2022, 2:43 pm You say I write like informed hobbyist. In the context of the discussion, you are accusing me of being a Hobbyist when it comes to Engineering. That sounds like an attempt at Invalidation to me.

I was trying to match the level of my comments to your knowledge (of networks, etc).

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2022, 5:43 amWhat I have to ask, as you debate the purpose and functions of Human emotion - is whether emotion is in fact a prime, a necessity

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2022, 9:08 pm That is a question for Pattern-Chaser, not me.

UniversalAlien, you ask if emotion is "a prime; a necessity"? Primary or necessary to what? To a human, to a human-constructed AI (the "humanoid" of the topic title), or what?

N.B. Even when you clarify your meaning, I suspect this might be a question to which no human currently has an answer. Let's see where we get to with this, though...

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2022, 7:35 am

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2022, 2:43 pm You say I write like informed hobbyist. In the context of the discussion, you are accusing me of being a Hobbyist when it comes to Engineering. That sounds like an attempt at Invalidation to me.

I was trying to match the level of my comments to your knowledge (of networks, etc).

Hahhhhh! There you go again! You still haven't figured out that I know everything about Everything!

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2022, 8:07 am You still haven't figured out that I know everything about Everything!

That is a hurdle I have been struggling to navigate since I first encountered you.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2022, 7:57 am

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2022, 5:43 amWhat I have to ask, as you debate the purpose and functions of Human emotion - is whether emotion is in fact a prime, a necessity

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2022, 9:08 pm That is a question for Pattern-Chaser, not me.

UniversalAlien, you ask if emotion is "a prime; a necessity"? Primary or necessary to what? To a human, to a human-constructed AI (the "humanoid" of the topic title), or what?

N.B. Even when you clarify your meaning, I suspect this might be a question to which no human currently has an answer. Let's see where we get to with this, though...

True, like consciousness, there is no universal definition of emotion - Exactly what is emotion

Rather than try to answer this, or your questions of what I was talking about, excuse me for using a simple analogy from
sci-fi. In the epic sci-fi series Star Trek, The Next Generation, there is a very Human like, in looks and actions, android named Data
- Data is always very logical, mostly friendly, but admittedly emotionless - It rarely ever shows emotion driven responses, and reacts to stimuli in a somewhat detached , but very plausible manner - It is very efficient, much more efficient than any Human might be
- And we can see how emotion would hinder this efficiency.

So what I am asking in reference to the original concept "How would you Design a Humanoid ?", is why would we want to have
emotions in a more efficient entity Does it really need any emotions to function like and communicate
with biological Humans

Remember I'm not talking about 'feelings', even giving the entity a 'touchy/feely' Human like ability to respond
- But why in the World would we want to complicate our new mostly artificial life form [life here being defined as cognitively aware, being able to interact with the environment and having a sense of self - "I think therefor I am"}
- Does this being really need emotion

UA,

Data, like Spock, did have emotions, but their responses were muted compared with other characters. Amusingly, they are probably more like astronauts in "work made" than were Kirk, Picard, Bones and Riker. No matter how intense the situation, modern astronauts don't shout or carry on. They simply use mental control methods to stay cool and focused in a crisis. Highly grounded characters (like Bowman and Poole in 2001) are probably not as entertaining as emotional types blowing their stack :)

Come to think of it, consumption of content full of "entertaining" hyper-emotional characters may explain to some extent why crackpot ideas have attained traction. People are looking at actors burning up the screen and thinking that that is normal behaviour, just as young people can believe that porn actors are not madly exaggerating everything.

We need emotion to do anything. Motivation is emotion. However, we don't need so much emotion that it interferes with our cognition. Flexible and contingent balance would seem optimal.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2022, 7:57 am UniversalAlien, you ask if emotion is "a prime; a necessity"? Primary or necessary to what? To a human, to a human-constructed AI (the "humanoid" of the topic title), or what?

N.B. Even when you clarify your meaning, I suspect this might be a question to which no human currently has an answer. Let's see where we get to with this, though...

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2022, 6:47 pm True, like consciousness, there is no universal definition of emotion - Exactly what is emotion

Rather than try to answer this, or your questions of what I was talking about, excuse me for using a simple analogy from
sci-fi. In the epic sci-fi series Star Trek, The Next Generation, there is a very Human like, in looks and actions, android named Data
- Data is always very logical, mostly friendly, but admittedly emotionless - It rarely ever shows emotion driven responses, and reacts to stimuli in a somewhat detached , but very plausible manner - It is very efficient, much more efficient than any Human might be
- And we can see how emotion would hinder this efficiency.

So what I am asking in reference to the original concept "How would you Design a Humanoid ?", is why would we want to have
emotions in a more efficient entity Does it really need any emotions to function like and communicate
with biological Humans

Remember I'm not talking about 'feelings', even giving the entity a 'touchy/feely' Human like ability to respond
- But why in the World would we want to complicate our new mostly artificial life form [life here being defined as cognitively aware, being able to interact with the environment and having a sense of self - "I think therefor I am"}
- Does this being really need emotion

If we can't define what emotion is, or what it is for, as you say (and I agree), we can't really say whether a "more efficient entity" might benefit from having it.

But I would point out that Mr Data has/had an emotion module fitted, which caused some interesting behaviours in a few episodes.

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Here is a little thing I wrote on Emotions a while back. I don't think I have posted this here yet:

Positive Emotions are such things as Happiness, Enthusiasm, Curiosity, Pride, Hope, and Love. Negative Emotions are such things as Sadness, Fear, Hate, Shame, Regret, Anger, Guilt, and Depression. There will be Neural Correlates in the Physical Mind (PM) for these Emotions, but they are not truly Emotions until the Conscious Mind (CM) Experiences them. Emotions are purely CM phenomena. The Brain itself does not Experience Emotions.

A Computer cannot Experience anything, as designed with today's technology. So a Computer will not be able to Experience Emotions. But what if we could someday design Conscious Computers that have Emotional capability? I don't think I will ever trust a Self Driving car that has no Fear. Self Driving Cars that could be developed with the Desire to get to a destination safely would have a good marketing talking point. Imagine if a sense of accomplishment, or Pride, could be designed into Machines. As AI gets more and more sophisticated I believe we will find that giving Machines basic Emotions will become almost mandatory.

There are probably many reasons why designing Emotions into Machines would be advantageous. Machines could have their own CMs, containing only a Limited set of Emotions and Desires that would be specific for the intended Task. We can Speculate that these Machines could be designed to take Pride in doing a particular Task and be completely Fulfilled and Happy to accomplish that Task. The Task is the only thing they would ever want to do. Nature is full of examples of such Limited Conscious Minds. Let's think about the Conscious existence of a Cat. It only wants to do Cat things. All it wants is to Eat, have Sex, Sleep, and occasionally Play. It has no further higher Desires or Thoughts. A Cat is completely fulfilled and Happy doing these Cat things.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 25th, 2022, 7:28 am ...There will be Neural Correlates in the Physical Mind (PM) for these Emotions, but they are not truly Emotions until the Conscious Mind (CM) Experiences them.

Emotions aren't like trees in forests being felled. They don't necessarily have to be consciously experienced before they can be deemed existent. For a start, some decisions are based heavily on emotion, but those decisions are made non-consciously, in what we call the "unconscious mind". In such a case, the emotions are real and existent, but are not at any point experienced consciously.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 25th, 2022, 8:04 am

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 25th, 2022, 7:28 am ...There will be Neural Correlates in the Physical Mind (PM) for these Emotions, but they are not truly Emotions until the Conscious Mind (CM) Experiences them.

Emotions aren't like trees in forests being felled. They don't necessarily have to be consciously experienced before they can be deemed existent. For a start, some decisions are based heavily on emotion, but those decisions are made non-consciously, in what we call the "unconscious mind". In such a case, the emotions are real and existent, but are not at any point experienced consciously.

If the Emotion is not Experienced, then there was no Emotion, regardless of what Neural Activity there might be. Emotion is an Experience, not Neural Activity.

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 26th, 2022, 7:11 am If the Emotion is not Experienced, then there was no Emotion, regardless of what Neural Activity there might be. Emotion is an Experience, not Neural Activity.

I see no justification of any sort here. But you seem sure of what emotions are, and what they're for; I am sure of neither. So I have no useful response to offer. Sorry.

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Dr. Geordie Rose, founder of D-Wave – the world’s first quantum computing company, and Kindred – the world’s first robotics company, returns to ideacity to share his theory of understanding minds and how that is applied to AI, with the understanding that "every thought that a human has ever thought resides inside our mind.“ This talk will make you think.

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Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 26th, 2022, 12:40 pm

SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 26th, 2022, 7:11 am If the Emotion is not Experienced, then there was no Emotion, regardless of what Neural Activity there might be. Emotion is an Experience, not Neural Activity.

I see no justification of any sort here. But you seem sure of what emotions are, and what they're for; I am sure of neither. So I have no useful response to offer. Sorry.

An Experience is exactly that, an Experience. Emotions are Experiences. Experiences are viewed separately from the Neural Activity. But I guess you Believe the Neural Activity is Emotion. Is that correct? If so, then I agree we are at an Impasse.

UniversalAlien wrote: ↑May 26th, 2022, 10:57 pm Dr. Geordie Rose | Synthetic Minds, Cooperation & the Future of Humanity

ideacity
65K subscribers
Dr. Geordie Rose, founder of D-Wave – the world’s first quantum computing company, and Kindred – the world’s first robotics company, returns to ideacity to share his theory of understanding minds and how that is applied to AI, with the understanding that "every thought that a human has ever thought resides inside our mind.“ This talk will make you think.

See video here:

[yid]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m39QcNz ... ngineering [/yid]

Geordie founded D-Wave, the world’s first quantum computing company, and Kindred, the world’s first robotics company to use reinforcement learning in a production environment. He has sold quantum computers and robots that learn to Google, NASA, Lockheed Martin, The Gap, and several US government agencies. He has a PhD in theoretical physics from UBC, was a two-time Canadian national wrestling champion, was the 2010 NAGA world champion in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in both gi and no-gi categories, was named the 2011 Canadian Innovator of the Year, was one of Foreign Policy Magazine’s 100 Leading Global Thinkers of 2013, and for a short time held the Guinness Book of World Records world record for the most yogurt eaten in one minute.

The Go Machine did not have a Goal, and therefore a Desire, to play and win the Game anymore than the old Mercury Thermometer wanted to show the correct Temperature. The Go Machine did not Want to Play, and did not Know it was Playing while it was Playing, and did not Know or be Happy that it won the game. There is no Mind involved here. For that you would need a Connection to a Conscious Mind. Rose is obviously a Marketing Hype smooth talker, trying to sell some more AI Snake Oil. It is the Mind thing that he is Hyping. His product might still be a Good thing, but there is Zero Explanation for how it is Conscious in any way.