Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

The biggest question that no one asks ... if Hamas is worried abut deaths, why have they continued to refuse to return the hostages?

The biggest question that no one asks ... if Israel is worried about deaths, why do they continue to occupy Palestine?

There are many questions to be answered here. These 👆 are just two of them; two of many.

We can't know if Israel is not worried about them but we can be 100% sure that Hamas is not worried. At least Israel cares about its own, unlike Hamas, who treat lives like bargaining chips.

[Gertie]

I am afraid you are right on. Netanyahu and Trump will make a dangerous couple. I do like your expression "colonial creep".

Yeah Trump is a potentially catastrophic wild card, dear god.

[Lagayascienza]

Questions needing to be asked. Is Israel preparing to annex the West Bank? They have been expanding their colonial presence since 1967 when they seized the territory.
The bigger question is how far is Israel's war going to expand? Jordon, Syria? Iran?

Since Netanyahu's government has realised it can get away with actual genocide they've gotten recklessly trigger happy. Netanyahu seems to believe he can only now stay in power via an Orwellian perpetual war or threat he's saving his citizens from. He sacked his fellow genocidal 'Defence' minister for saying there was nothing left in Gaza worth bombing. Now the pretext of extending 'buffer zones', which Israelis then settle, and which then requires a further 'buffer zone' to protect them, and so on. It's colonial creep.

If America won't act, and Israeli politicians and Israeli citizens won't act, then he'll eventually poke a bigger power who will I guess. Potentially sucking everyone else in.

Yes, "colonial creep" is a good term. It is exactly what is happening and has been happening since the inception of Israel. The unjust partition of Palestine in 1948 wasn't enough for the Israelis, and ever since 1948 they have inflicted death by a thousand cuts on the Palestinians. It has been a program of dispossession and extermination and that program is ongoing with the support of the USA and the propaganda of its corporate media. It's shameful.

[Gertie]

Questions needing to be asked. Is Israel preparing to annex the West Bank? They have been expanding their colonial presence since 1967 when they seized the territory.
The bigger question is how far is Israel's war going to expand? Jordon, Syria? Iran?

Since Netanyahu's government has realised it can get away with actual genocide they've gotten recklessly trigger happy. Netanyahu seems to believe he can only now stay in power via an Orwellian perpetual war or threat he's saving his citizens from. He sacked his fellow genocidal 'Defence' minister for saying there was nothing left in Gaza worth bombing. Now the pretext of extending 'buffer zones', which Israelis then settle, and which then requires a further 'buffer zone' to protect them, and so on. It's colonial creep.

If America won't act, and Israeli politicians and Israeli citizens won't act, then he'll eventually poke a bigger power who will I guess. Potentially sucking everyone else in.

Yes, "colonial creep" is a good term. It is exactly what is happening and has been happening since the inception of Israel. The unjust partition of Palestine in 1948 wasn't enough for the Israelis, and ever since 1948 they have inflicted death by a thousand cuts on the Palestinians. It has been a program of dispossession and extermination and that program is ongoing with the support of the USA and the propaganda of its corporate media. It's shameful.

Yes it's shameful. And Government arms and media genocide apologetics in my country in my lifetime. It's sick.

[Sy Borg]

None of you Hamas supporters care nearly as much about Russia taking Ukraine, and you certainly don't care about China eating away at Bhutan's land, nor Nepal's. Nor do you seem to care about the takeover of Indonesian, Thai and Filipino fishing territories. Not a peep is heard from you about Sudan. Ever. Only Palestine matters to you - the victims of Evil Oppressors, as described by your Marxist university professors.

You might claim there are no deaths in the latter invasions, but there would be a slaughter if those nations dared to invade China with missiles, kill a thousand Chinese and kidnap hundreds of others, and refuse to return them. That's what Palestine/Iran did to Israel. No mention of the fact that ANY nation would respond like Israel in their situation. But very few would be as suicidal and cynical as Palestine (guided by Iran).

So, why haven't Bhutan, Nepal, Indonesia and the Philippines bombed China and kidnapped and tortured their people? Because China would do to them what Israel is doing to Palestine. Unlike Palestine - these nations actually care about their people, rather than cynically using their dead bodies as bargaining chips to parade around western media, to take advantage of the sympathies of idealistic hard-leftists, like on this board.

Massive blind spots, massive hypocrisy. No intelligence applied when analysing different hotspots around the world, just slavishly following the "trendy" line.

[Mo_reese]

Whether or not people are expressing their opinions about the atrocities occurring in the world other than in the middle east has nothing to do to what is happening in Gaza.
Israel is violating international laws and committing atrocities daily.
> Air strikes by Israel have targeted hospitals, schools, residential apartments, water supplies, aid workers, journalists, tents of refugees, etc, resulting in the deaths of possibly 100,000 Palestinians mostly women and children.
> While Hamas is holding approx 200 hostages, Israel was holding about 5,000 hostages in prisons before the Hamas invasion and now has approx 9,000.
> IDF has bragged about their snipers shooting children which is just plain evil.
> Israel has been “colonial creeping” into the West Bank for years and now have accelerated their pace. Europeans come to get access to settle after the Palestinians are evicted sometimes with bulldozers.
> Human rights organizations have documented mistreatment by Israel of Palestinian prisoners including children. Accusations of detention without trial, torture and rape.
> Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have accused Israel of operating an apartheid system in their treatment of Palestinians.

This is a short list of the human rights violations and crimes against humanity being leveled against Israel by the United Nations, the European Union and many human rights organizations.

Accusations against those that are horrified by what Israel and the US are doing as being Hamas supporters are childish.

I am particularly upset because my government is equally responsible for this program to exterminate Palestinians. Also, my government is attempting to silence those that object to the genocide. So much for democracy and free speech.

There is no excuse, no justification for snipers shooting children.

[Sy Borg]

Whether or not people are expressing their opinions about the atrocities occurring in the world other than in the middle east has nothing to do to what is happening in Gaza.

No, but your blatant and extreme bias is noted.

There is no excuse, no justification for snipers shooting children.

Nor is there any excuse of using children as soldiers or human shields. Funnily enough, western Hamas supporters think that's perfectly fine.

[Pattern-chaser]

There is no excuse, no justification for snipers shooting children.

Correct.

Nor is there any excuse of using children as soldiers or human shields.

Also correct.

Both of these things are part of what is wrong. But what about the other side of the coin? What is it that is right? The seemingly endless cycle of death is wrong; we all agree on that. So where do we go from here? What is the right direction to move in?

[Sy Borg]

There is no excuse, no justification for snipers shooting children.

Correct.

Nor is there any excuse of using children as soldiers or human shields.

Also correct.

Both of these things are part of what is wrong. But what about the other side of the coin? What is it that is right? The seemingly endless cycle of death is wrong; we all agree on that. So where do we go from here? What is the right direction to move in?

Why would you assume that there is a right direction? There has not been a right direction for 70 years. Some things just need to play out over time.

[Mo_reese]

(the quote function isn't working)

To Sy Borg
I admit I am biased as I hope you'd admit that you are also biased but from different points of view. I am biased against the brutal program of the US and their puppet Israel to exterminate all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank and most likely more.
You seem to support Israel's actions but without justification.
I am glad we can agree that there is no justification for shooting children as well as using civilians as human shields.
We can't seem to agree that labeling people that don't support genocide as "Hamas supporters", isn't logical. One can be against genocide without supporting Hamas.

[Sy Borg]

I support the group whose society is most decent and civilised. I want the world to move forwards, not backwards. Hamas have taken billions in aid and, instead of using it to help the people and built industry, they bought weapons and built tunnels.

I note that China has been eating away at Russia, Nepal and, especially, Bhutan for many years in the same way as Israeli "settlers" have been chipping away at Palestine. Yet these nations are not sending murder and kidnap squads into the bullying nation. Imagine what would happen to them if they did. It would make Palestine look like a kindergarten party. Hamas deliberately brought all this on itself. What else did it think it would happen after 7 Oct last year?

Israel is not committing genocide. International NGOs have been captured and their claims by vested interests cannot be trusted. There are many more Arabs outside Palestine than Jews, so there is a genuine risk of genocide of Jews in this war but zero chance of Arab genocide. Of course, the destruction of Israel and the genocide of Jews is the primary aim of Hamas and their millions of western supporters.

I know exactly why westerners support Hamas, though. One of my oldest friends was, and is, a rapid anti-Semite. He sees them through a typical academic Marxist view - the Evil Oppressors, and he too lies about genocide. Palestinians are just radicalised Jordanian and Syrian expats, not a race. he knows that, and admits it in private, but he still sprouts the same falsehoods to ohers.

Of course, if there was genuine concern, Arab nations would accept Palestinian refugees. After all, if it was genocide, they would be compelled to save them. They all know this is not genocide, just war - and a war started by Hamas, and perpetrated by Hamas.

If anything as serious as genocide was a risk, Hamas would have returned to hostages to save the "Palestinian race". No, Hamas chose to extend the war. Why wouldn't they? They are winning the PR battle due to absurd reporting that largely ignores human shields, child soldiers, tunnels and the fact that the war only continues according to Hamas's wishes.

However, Sinwar was widely quoted as being prepared to have hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people killed if it meant he destruction of Israel. He is now dead, but his hatred lives on - even in westerners who support this violent, totalitarian, deeply misogynist and homophobic state.

[Mo_reese]

Sy Borg - Please share your source of your definition of genocide. According to the definition via the United Nations, Israel is guilty of genocide. But no matter what you call it, it's a program aimed at exterminating over a million Palestinians. There is no justification. Hamas didn't start the war on Oct 7, it was a conflict in a war that's been going on for decades.

[Sy Borg]

The UN has been captured, which is why they have had more resolutions against Israel than the rest of the world combined. The UN are obviously neither objective nor credible, just pushing agendas.

Hamas can stop the war at any time. They could have returned the hostages at any time, so any deaths are on their heads.

[Pattern-chaser]

Why would you assume that there is a right direction?

I wouldn't and I don't. Sadly, too much has happened for there to be a quick and easy solution. Maybe, as you imply, there isn't a solution at all. Like the UK's (hopefully-historic) troubles in N. Ireland, a simple solution just doesn't exist.

There has not been a right direction for 70 years. Some things just need to play out over time.

70? I make it closer to 3000? This one seems never to stop "play[ing] out over time".

[Pattern-chaser]

We can't seem to agree that labeling people that don't support genocide as "Hamas supporters", isn't logical. One can be against genocide without supporting Hamas.

Yes, this does seem to be our major stumbling-block in this particular discussion...