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User avatar
By Pattern-chaser
#463844
Sy Borg wrote: June 13th, 2024, 1:10 am Palestine's lies make Israel's seem like a child's white lies. Of course, you believe everything Palestine says implicitly, as though truth wasn't the first casualty in war.
Yesterday, the UN announced there was evidence that Israel *and Hamas* were guilty of war-crimes...?
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
User avatar
By Mo_reese
#463858
Sy Borg wrote: June 13th, 2024, 1:10 am Palestine's lies make Israel's seem like a child's white lies. Of course, you believe everything Palestine says implicitly, as though truth wasn't the first casualty in war.
You seem to struggle guessing what I believe. Let me help.
> Israel is run by Zionists that clearly want to expand Israel.
> The Zionists' plan includes expelling or exterminating Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
> Zionists don't represent the Jewish people nor Judaism.
> Objecting to the brutal murder by IDF of children isn't hating Jews (anti-Semitic).
> Anti-Semitism is being weaponized and used in ad hominem attacks to stifle criticism.
> The US and Israel knew ahead of time about the Oct 7 attack and let it happen.
> Hamas was wrong to attack and abduct civilians. Israel is wrong to hold over 5,000 Palestinians hostage.
> Netanyahu was glad to have justification for his plan to wipe Gaza clean of Palestinians and was willing to sacrifice the dead and hostages.
> Israeli officials are very clear about considering all Palestinians as Hamas therefore there are no civilians in Gaza. The genocide apologists are guilty of misinformation when claiming IDF is protecting civilians.
> Hamas was guilty of crimes against humanity on Oct 7 and Israel has answered with crimes against humanity. Of course genocide apologists try to justify Israel's war crimes.
> Typically the biggest bully can drop 2,000 pound bombs on starving refugees in tents, shoot children and pregnant women with snipers, bomb hospitals and ambulances, hold over 5,000 people hostage, deny a million people food, water, shelter and medical care and it's not terrorism. The rich are never terrorists only the poor.
User avatar
By Mo_reese
#463859
Sy Borg wrote: June 13th, 2024, 1:10 am
Never a word of criticism for Hamas from Mo et al. Not a peep of complaint. Nor will there ever any criticism because - to Mo - Hamas is The Oppressed and thus can do no wrong. Palestinians are actually considered by their western "friends" as too primitive to be expected to behave in a civilised manner, hence the excusing of their constant human rights abuses (often to their own). If they believed Palestinians to be fully human they would hold them to the same standards as the west or Israel.
With respect, this sounds like projection. I have posted a number of times my criticism of Hamas. They were guilty of crimes against humanity on Oct 7, and need to be held accountable. That doesn't justify shooting children. I also believe Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity and need to be held accountable, do you?

Interesting but I don't view Palestinians as less than "fully human" how about you?
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#463863
Mo_reese wrote: June 13th, 2024, 12:23 pm
Sy Borg wrote: June 13th, 2024, 1:10 am
Never a word of criticism for Hamas from Mo et al. Not a peep of complaint. Nor will there ever any criticism because - to Mo - Hamas is The Oppressed and thus can do no wrong. Palestinians are actually considered by their western "friends" as too primitive to be expected to behave in a civilised manner, hence the excusing of their constant human rights abuses (often to their own). If they believed Palestinians to be fully human they would hold them to the same standards as the west or Israel.
With respect, this sounds like projection. I have posted a number of times my criticism of Hamas. They were guilty of crimes against humanity on Oct 7, and need to be held accountable. That doesn't justify shooting children. I also believe Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity and need to be held accountable, do you?

Interesting but I don't view Palestinians as less than "fully human" how about you?
Again, you talk about Israel "shooting children" without acknowledging that Hamas deliberately put those children in harm's way so that westerners would say "Israel shoot children". These deaths are entirely by Hamas's design. Wat they are doing is so horrific that it seems many westerners have a blind spot.

Hamas started the war. They deliberately prolonged it, and they have also ensured that it is maximally (publicly) damaging.
User avatar
By Mo_reese
#463867
Sy Borg wrote: June 13th, 2024, 5:53 pm
Again, you talk about Israel "shooting children" without acknowledging that Hamas deliberately put those children in harm's way so that westerners would say "Israel shoot children". These deaths are entirely by Hamas's design. Wat they are doing is so horrific that it seems many westerners have a blind spot.
There is no justification for deliberately having snipers shooting children. Some Israeli officials say that Palestinian children and babies deserve to be killed. This is monstrous. Do you agree with Israel officials that Palestinians a less than human? Is that a justification?
Do you think that Israel is justified in exterminating all the Palestinians in Gaza? Or is there a limit to how many they are "justified" in killing?
Sy Borg wrote: June 13th, 2024, 5:53 pm Hamas started the war. They deliberately prolonged it, and they have also ensured that it is maximally (publicly) damaging.
The war was started long before Oct 7. On Oct 6 Israel had over 5,000 Palestinians as hostages. Israel has been evicting Palestinians in the West Bank and giving their homes to rich Europeans. Palestinians have claimed that the IDF has been systematically beating, killing and raping Palestinians for decades, but that gets no mention in the Western media that supports the wealthy.
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#463870
Why is this such an issue for you? Where was this righteous anger when Yemen and Syria were suffering FAR worse casualties and damage than Palestinians? Where are you for the Sudanese? How about the Uyghurs or Tibetans? Where is the outrage at the displacement of Nepalese and those from Bhutan?

And ... if Hamas did not conduct a major terror attack in Israel, none of this would have happened. If they surrendered early on - you know, to save lives - this would have been over quickly.

You could not care less about what's happening in any of those other places, though. Zero interest. However, you follow the injustices of Gaza with fine tooth comb, ticking off every Hamas claim and dismissing every Israeli claim.

Your outrage clearly has almost nothing whatsoever to do with human rights and suffering and everything to do with anti-western politicking and anti-Semitism.
User avatar
By Pattern-chaser
#463894
Sy Borg wrote: June 13th, 2024, 5:53 pm Again, you talk about Israel "shooting children" without acknowledging that Hamas deliberately put those children in harm's way so that westerners would say "Israel shoot children".
Even if that was so, the IDF, a 'professional' army, should've been able to say to themselves, "Hey, that's a child", and *not pull the trigger*.


Mo_reese wrote: June 13th, 2024, 12:23 pm Interesting but I don't view Palestinians as less than "fully human" how about you?
And this is the question that you, Sy, didn't answer. In recent threads about the Middle East, you don't seem willing to respond to questions that appear fair and reasonable...?
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#463910
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 14th, 2024, 8:17 am
Sy Borg wrote: June 13th, 2024, 5:53 pm Again, you talk about Israel "shooting children" without acknowledging that Hamas deliberately put those children in harm's way so that westerners would say "Israel shoot children".
Even if that was so, the IDF, a 'professional' army, should've been able to say to themselves, "Hey, that's a child", and *not pull the trigger*.
But Hamas - who proclaim (lie) that they care about their people - deliberately place children in harm's way. You'd think someone might say, 'Maybe it's wrong to use children as human shields'.

https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americ ... -netanyahu

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 14th, 2024, 8:17 am
Mo_reese wrote: June 13th, 2024, 12:23 pm Interesting but I don't view Palestinians as less than "fully human" how about you?
And this is the question that you, Sy, didn't answer. In recent threads about the Middle East, you don't seem willing to respond to questions that appear fair and reasonable...?
Wrong, Mo believes that palestinians are incapable of making moral decisions, that they just automatically react to Israeli stimuli like lab rats. He does not see them as humans with moral agency. Seemingly, neither do you.

I see Palestinians as humans with moral agency, which is why the primary responsibility for this debacle lies on Hamas's shoulders. If anything, Israel are guilty of being dupes, of playing into Hamas's almost unbelievably cynical hands.
The deaths of Palestinian civilians, Sinwar reportedly wrote, “infuse life into the veins of this nation, prompting it to rise to its glory and honor.” He also referred to civilian deaths as “necessary sacrifices” in the war against Israel, according to the Wall Street Journal.

We make the headlines with blood,” Sinwar reportedly told an Italian reporter in 2018. “No blood, no news.”
User avatar
By Lagayscienza
#463911
Killing defenceless children is always wrong. And that goes for those who put defenceless children in harm's way (the Palestinian militants) and for those who actually kill defenceless children (the Israeli military).

They are innocent children, FCS! And the same goes for the children in Sudan, in Syria, in Ukraine and anywhere else. Casting this conflict in term of religion, in term of Jews versus Muslims, is to divorce oneself from the reality of children being, starved, brutalized and killed over lebensraum in the same way that the Nazis cast their war of aggression in terms of civilised Christian Europe against world Jewry. Such a characterisation was was bullsh*t then and such a characterisation of the conflict in Palestine is bull#hit now.

Who started this conflict is irrelevant. Maybe it started when the Jews were exiled to Egypt, or when they refused to accept Roman law and were dispersed, or maybe it started in 1949 when Palestine was unjustly partitioned. All of that is irrelevant and dwelling on it will do nothing to bring about a just solution which would make children in Palestine safe.

Every innocent child that the Israeli military kills is a moral weight that will bear down on the shoulders of Israel forever. And antisemites will love it because they will be able to use it against Jews in future. If the Israeli government wants to make Jews hated and despised, then this is a great way to ensure they will be.

What they ought to be doing, what they should have been doing long before now, is trying to find a way for the two peoples to live side by side with a two state solution. Israel has never wanted such a solution and does not now. All their actions since 1949 demonstrate that they want all of Palestine. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Just lay down and die.

No one, except the Nazis, supposed that the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto ought to do that. And they didn't. They fought until the last of them were exterminated in the burning ruins of the Warsaw ghetto. So why shouldn't the Palestinians do the same in the face of Israel's current exterminatory project?

Israel, you have all the power. Be a peacemaker. Show the world what moral goodness looks like and not what avarice, greed and hatred look like.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#463913
Lagayscienza wrote: June 14th, 2024, 10:52 amWhat they ought to be doing, what they should have been doing long before now, is trying to find a way for the two peoples to live side by side with a two state solution. Israel has never wanted such a solution and does not now. All their actions since 1949 demonstrate that they want all of Palestine. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Just lay down and die.
This is backwards. Palestine have been the ones to reject the two-state solution. Hamas's only policy is the end of Israel - and you blame Israel for failing to negotiate a truce with them? The only truce possible with Hamas is the end of Israel.

Rather than lay down an die, or obsess about turning Gaze into Taliban Mk II, Palestinians might consider simply working to improve their lot peacefully. However, that is not the Arab way, not these days. Notice how many wars today involve Muslims, especially in Africa?

When Muslims fight, they never stop. I suppose that relates to interpretations of passages in the Koran, but Muslims do seem to be especially implacable and unwilling to compromise compared with other groups, as evidenced by immigration issues in Europe. It's their way or the highway. No compromise is possible. If it was, it would have been found in the last seven decades.
User avatar
By Lagayscienza
#463915
No, it is not backwards. I shall not give a detailed list here of all the times Israel has rejected a two state solution or of all the times the Palestinians have rejected a proffered deal. Before I do that, I want to be sure to get the historical details of all the attempts at peace into a clear format. When I have done that, and if it demonstrates that Israel has never wanted a two state solution, would you accept it? Or would you continue to claim bias against Israel?
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
User avatar
By Mo_reese
#463917
Sy Borg wrote: June 14th, 2024, 10:43 am
Wrong, Mo believes that palestinians are incapable of making moral decisions, that they just automatically react to Israeli stimuli like lab rats. He does not see them as humans with moral agency. Seemingly, neither do you.
Please stop misquoting me. I made a long list of what I believe and I sure didn't include what you say above.
I believe:
> Israel has never wanted a two -state solution.
>Israel has always wanted to expand their borders.
> Netanyahu ignored warnings from Egypt and their own border patrols about the impending attack.
> The US intelligence knew well ahead of time about the massing of Hama soldiers near the border and their training for an attack.
> Netanyahu allowed the attack, sacrificed Israeli citizens, IDF soldiers and foreign citizens for the justification to exterminate all Palestinians in Gaza.
> Israel launched a massive misinformation program claiming that Hamas systematically raped women, cut babies from pregnant women, beheaded babies, burned babies in ovens, etc. All of this has been debunked.
> Killing children intentionally is monstrous. The IDF brags about how many children they've killed. That doesn't sound like the children were collateral victims. Even if a Hamas soldier stood behind a child, it would be a sick person that would shoot the child.
> Israel is on a suicide mission. Where can they go from here? Kill the remaining million people in Gaza? Then what? Go back to peaceful living?
> Saying that those that object to Israel's program to exterminate Palestinians isn't hating all Jews.
> Calling someone anti-Semitic has become a slur to be used to bully others.
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#463940
I am not quoting you - please get your facts straight. I am interpreting your obvious HATRED for Israel and Jews.

Palestine has rejected every offer to a two-state solution and made clear for decades that it has no interest in anything by the end of Israel.

The Arabb world has always resented the existence of Jews in their midst. While Israel has many Arabic migrants, all surrounding Arab nations had driven Jews out.

That Netanyahu is a fool does not justify the Palestinian attack. You, if course, have excuses for that barbarism.

Hilarious that you talk about Israel sacrificing Israeli citizens. Netanyahu's failure to prevent the attack has made his post-war leadership unviable.

Meanwhile, here is a Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar 2018 quote: "We make the headlines with blood. No blood, no news". No doubt you'll find an excuse for that too.

The death of children is engineered by Hamas to capture western dupes, who help them spread their hateful propaganda.

Mo, you are not just anti-Semitic, you are obsessively anti-Semitic. That's why you care NOTHING for all the other conflicts in the world, yet this conflict is clearly the most important thing in your entire life at the moment - the issue that captures every ounce of your passion.

Why of the atrocities in Sudan. Mo does not care, even a bit because Jews and westerners aren't involved and it's perperated by Muslims (surprise! surprise!).

Since you pretend to care about children in distant places, why do you care ZERO about the rape and killing of children in Sudan, and even get angry when I bring it up, as if I was raining an annoying, pointless distraction?
“Since the conflict began in April 2023 between the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) and the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), the Committee on the Rights of the Child has observed repeated attacks on civilians and civilian objects, widespread killings, including ethnically motivated, and the death of thousands of civilians, many of them are children.

There were worrying reports of rape of civilians, including children, denial of humanitarian access affecting children’s access to basic necessities, and other violations of international law, including violations of children’s economic and social rights.

These violations resulted in 24 million children in Sudan being at risk of generational catastrophe. Among these children, 14 million are in dire need of humanitarian support, 19 million are out of school, and 4 million are displaced, according to UNICEF, making Sudan now the largest child displacement crisis in the world.

Their conditions are appalling, with acute shortages of food and clean drinking water; UNICEF found that 3.7 million children are acutely malnourished, including 730,000 with severe acute malnutrition.

Exacerbating the situation, two-thirds of Sudanese lack access to health care services after 70-80% of hospitals ceased operation following a severe shortage of medical supplies, including lifesaving medicines.

UNICEF has warned that tens of thousands of children will likely die without improved access and additional support, including increased international funding.

There has been a sharp increase in the number of children killed or victimised by sexual violence as a weapon of war compared to a year ago. Children are at higher risk given the widespread armed recruitment of children, particularly in Darfur and other areas, including eastern Sudan.

Schools across the country have either been destroyed or at least 170 campuses turned into emergency shelters for internally displaced people, thus jeopardising children’s right to education for many years to come and exposing them to the risk of sexual exploitation and trafficking.

The Committee is deeply concerned by these clear violations of children’s rights to life, survival, education and development under international human rights law and international humanitarian law.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases ... and-rights

(Notice that I could not use a western media source because, like you, they only care about Arabs).
User avatar
By Mo_reese
#463966
Responding to Sy Borg,
I am disappointed that you have to resort to talking about my obvious "HATRED for Israel and Jews". Not true.
"Mo you are not just anti-Semitic, you are obsessively anti-Semitic." Again, not true and I find your use of "anti-Semitic" as a slur and again, disappointed.

Even if I was anti-Semitic, it has nothing to do with the horrible killing in Gaza. There is no justification for what Israel is doing.
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#463973
Mo_reese wrote: June 15th, 2024, 2:27 pm Responding to Sy Borg,
I am disappointed that you have to resort to talking about my obvious "HATRED for Israel and Jews". Not true.
"Mo you are not just anti-Semitic, you are obsessively anti-Semitic." Again, not true and I find your use of "anti-Semitic" as a slur and again, disappointed.

Even if I was anti-Semitic, it has nothing to do with the horrible killing in Gaza. There is no justification for what Israel is doing.
Sorry, I am just pointing out the blatantly obvious.

Your complaints are not about the suffering and violence - otherwise you would not be relatively dismissive of the suffering of Uyghurs, Sudanese, Yemenis, Syrians and Haiti, not to mention other violence-ravaged African nations. Not a word.

It's not about injustice either, or you'd be outraged at the Islamic disruption of Africa, or China's regular theft of land from Nepal and Bhutan, or how China has claimed local Filipino and Vietnamese fishing grounds in the South China Sea. Not a peep.

No, Palestine is the only hot spot that captures your passion. The only possible reason is anti-Semitism - or being related to Palestinians being used by Hamas as human shields for publicity purposes. No criticism of that either - for obvious reasons.

It is not easy to have someone hold up a mirror and show you things about yourself that you don't like. We've all been through it. It's part of the growing process. I have recently had the difficult situation of realising that much that I believed was idealistic and short-sighted, which is why some "obvious" policies are not enacted.

Every morning I look in my box and my heart sinks to see that the only people replying to me here are one-eyed Palestine obsessives who have no interest in looking at the situation philosophically. What about talking philosophy? Yet, if I start a philosophical thread ... there's just Jack, Lagaya and crickets.

Would anyone object if I locked this and the anti-Semite threads so the forum can move on from dumb politics and onto beautiful philosophy? Nothing major and new has been said on this for weeks - just going around the same circles.
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