Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Baby Augustine]

I think the whole thing is an irrational perversion.
There is no Male or Female but X is transitioning to not-X...makes no sense.
If you want to know what sex you are, just ask me and I will tell you how to figure that out.

[Pattern-chaser]

It has to do with the misrepresentation of the situation of transpeople. Normal people, especially women, suffer a higher degree of erasure, abuse, violence and misrepresentation than transpeople, although we are told otherwise. There is an ideological push that manages to suggest that transpeople are the most oppressed group ever, and that the reaction to violence from them is unreasonable.

That's a remarkable claim. Do you have any links or references to this? 'Normal' people are subject to greater discrimination than transgender people? Really?

Follow https://twitter.com/CountDeadWomen and you'll be shocked. Also, look at the stats available from the UN on misogyny.

Such things have to be considered proportionally, I think. It is genuinely appalling that women are treated so, but there are roughly 4,000,000,000 women in the world, and an awful lot less transgender people, so even 1 transgender person murdered would proportionally vastly outnumber the women in the Twitter stream.

These are appalling statistics we are discussing here. I made my original point because you claimed that one group suffered much greater discrimination than another. This type of observation demeans and diminishes both causes, each of which is right and just. The kind of comparison you made just isn't helpful, IMO.

[Stoppelmann]

Oops!

[Stoppelmann]

That's a remarkable claim. Do you have any links or references to this? 'Normal' people are subject to greater discrimination than transgender people? Really?

Follow https://twitter.com/CountDeadWomen and you'll be shocked. Also, look at the stats available from the UN on misogyny.

Such things have to be considered proportionally, I think. It is genuinely appalling that women are treated so, but there are roughly 4,000,000,000 women in the world, and an awful lot less transgender people, so even 1 transgender person murdered would proportionally vastly outnumber the women in the Twitter stream.

These are appalling statistics we are discussing here. I made my original point because you claimed that one group suffered much greater discrimination than another. This type of observation demeans and diminishes both causes, each of which is right and just. The kind of comparison you made just isn't helpful, IMO.

I think that it is a question of perspective, and having lived in the Far East for a while, where I experienced the first examples of maltreatment of women, it became something I observed was happening everywhere. It even happened to my mother when my father got drunk in a bout of jealousy, so I was very aware of how women were treated. This accompanied me throughout my life and I very often heard women say that they found me to be very different to many men, and my wife only married me because I wasn’t a typical male. I also became a nurse, which meant that I worked with women and heard their stories, saw their men react to me with suspicion, and observed the degree of domestic violence that went on around us.

My sister, her daughter and many other women that we knew as friends experienced domestic violence, sadly more so in the UK, where many women had bad experiences. But there is also the news, whether at home or abroad in which misogyny is widely reported, as well as links like the ones I have posted. If we take the experience of women world-wide, you will find that many cases of domestic violence or oppression are not reported, except when women stand up for themselves and then they are promptly killed, as well as the men who stand up for them. This is obviously worse in strict religious societies, like for example Iran at the moment, but numerous Muslim countries have the same arrangements, just as Christian countries have had in the past and in some fundamentalist groups it still exists.

The number of misogynist attacks can hardly be counted, the number of girls and women who are raped is unknown, but from what we do know, it is high – far higher than we suspect. It is so common, that there are areas in which many children show evidence of being the result of incest, and are locked away. The West tends to judge things by what we see, and ignores what we cannot see, and it shocks us to see how many young women are subjected to trafficking, or when a young woman suddenly appears after having been locked up for decades and used as a sex slave. When I was a soldier, I often heard of gang-bangs, and saw how the men thought that it was just fun. I was ribbed because I didn’t want anything to do with it.

Young girls tell of how they are expected to watch pornography and satisfy their boyfriends, and how they would be ostracised if they didn’t comply. I even experienced this in a church youth group, so you can imagine how widespread it is. The abuse victims in the church tell their own story, but it goes on everywhere on a regular basis. The woman who has never experienced it is a rare find, or she has just accepted her fate. Men who do not do these things are rare, women tell me, and obviously, I cannot verify what they say, but the circumstantial evidence is so distressing, that I doubt that anyone can doubt it.

[Sy Borg]

People are not all the same.

[Stoppelmann]

People are not all the same.

People are, in fact, all different, and recognition of this fundamental truth is what we need. Instead, we have an industry that makes money selling medicine and surgery as a means to transform young people into stereotypes that have basically long been overcome. Transgender people who identify as the opposite sex align themselves with binary gender identities, even when they claim to be non-binary, in order to overcome non-conforming homosexuality, and even non-conforming heterosexuality, which would be the natural way to affirm the fact that we are all different.

The radical post-modern approach is to criticise the gender roles that have orientated themselves on a persons sex, and we have come a long way to assist women, who were the main (but not only) victims of convention, to enter into areas that have long been dominated by men. There is still a lot to do, to be able to speak of equality, but in their fight against convention, they fail to recognise that they are rehashing sex stereotypes from the fifties, and we are seeing many figures that appear as mere caricatures of women. What seems to be a recurring issue is the fact that the behaviour of transwomen under stress is immediately identified by vulnerable females as male.

The biological men that undergo a partial transition superficially no longer correspond to either sex, presenting themselves as an “intersex” model, with mixed external attributes, and therefore it is not understandable, why these people require an identity as women, unless it is to fulfil their phantasy. Most transmen accept that despite all external appearances, they are not biological men, even if they undergo the difficult surgery that gives them the appearance of being male. Many transwomen, who have also undergone a full transition, except a few, keep themselves out of the trans activism that is going on.

The “difference” that is quite natural and has in the past been repressed, isn’t being served by trans activism. In fact, one has the feeling that the variations of womanhood are being repressed once again, to give trans women the status of being a woman, although they represent a caricature of a certain kind of woman, and lack the biological ability to give birth. It comes across as a big show and is often hyped as such in the media, giving it more coverage than would be expected, if it was only about personal sensibility.

[Belindi]

People are not all the same.

People are, in fact, all different, and recognition of this fundamental truth is what we need. Instead, we have an industry that makes money selling medicine and surgery as a means to transform young people into stereotypes that have basically long been overcome. Transgender people who identify as the opposite sex align themselves with binary gender identities, even when they claim to be non-binary, in order to overcome non-conforming homosexuality, and even non-conforming heterosexuality, which would be the natural way to affirm the fact that we are all different.

The radical post-modern approach is to criticise the gender roles that have orientated themselves on a persons sex, and we have come a long way to assist women, who were the main (but not only) victims of convention, to enter into areas that have long been dominated by men. There is still a lot to do, to be able to speak of equality, but in their fight against convention, they fail to recognise that they are rehashing sex stereotypes from the fifties, and we are seeing many figures that appear as mere caricatures of women. What seems to be a recurring issue is the fact that the behaviour of transwomen under stress is immediately identified by vulnerable females as male.

The biological men that undergo a partial transition superficially no longer correspond to either sex, presenting themselves as an “intersex” model, with mixed external attributes, and therefore it is not understandable, why these people require an identity as women, unless it is to fulfil their phantasy. Most transmen accept that despite all external appearances, they are not biological men, even if they undergo the difficult surgery that gives them the appearance of being male. Many transwomen, who have also undergone a full transition, except a few, keep themselves out of the trans activism that is going on.

The “difference” that is quite natural and has in the past been repressed, isn’t being served by trans activism. In fact, one has the feeling that the variations of womanhood are being repressed once again, to give trans women the status of being a woman, although they represent a caricature of a certain kind of woman, and lack the biological ability to give birth. It comes across as a big show and is often hyped as such in the media, giving it more coverage than would be expected, if it was only about personal sensibility.

I agree and applaud. I'd like to add in the short term at least we need more policing of human rights so women ( any person who is physically weaker)are protected against male aggressiveness and cruelty.

[Pattern-chaser]

I think that it is a question of perspective, and having lived in the Far East for a while, where I experienced the first examples of maltreatment of women...

Yes, all of this is correct, and we should all be ashamed of the way women have been historically treated, just as we should be ashamed of all the discriminatory vilenesses that we practice. But introducing the plight of women into a topic trying to discuss transexuals is not helpful. It detracts from both: yes, all discrimination is appalling, but this discussion is about transsexuals.

[Stoppelmann]

I think that it is a question of perspective, and having lived in the Far East for a while, where I experienced the first examples of maltreatment of women...

Yes, all of this is correct, and we should all be ashamed of the way women have been historically treated, just as we should be ashamed of all the discriminatory vilenesses that we practice. But introducing the plight of women into a topic trying to discuss transexuals is not helpful. It detracts from both: yes, all discrimination is appalling, but this discussion is about transsexuals.

I believe it started when you wrote: "That's a remarkable claim. Do you have any links or references to this? 'Normal' people are subject to greater discrimination than transgender people? Really?"

[Pattern-chaser]

'Normal' people are subject to greater discrimination than transgender people? Really?"

I think you are mistaking me for another contributor?

[Stoppelmann]

I think you are mistaking me for another contributor?

It has to do with the misrepresentation of the situation of transpeople. Normal people, especially women, suffer a higher degree of erasure, abuse, violence and misrepresentation than transpeople, although we are told otherwise. There is an ideological push that manages to suggest that transpeople are the most oppressed group ever, and that the reaction to violence from them is unreasonable.

That's a remarkable claim. Do you have any links or references to this? 'Normal' people are subject to greater discrimination than transgender people? Really?

[Pattern-chaser]

I think you are mistaking me for another contributor?

It has to do with the misrepresentation of the situation of transpeople. Normal people, especially women, suffer a higher degree of erasure, abuse, violence and misrepresentation than transpeople, although we are told otherwise. There is an ideological push that manages to suggest that transpeople are the most oppressed group ever, and that the reaction to violence from them is unreasonable.

That's a remarkable claim. Do you have any links or references to this? 'Normal' people are subject to greater discrimination than transgender people? Really?

***

'Normal' people are subject to greater discrimination than transgender people? Really?"

I think you are mistaking me for another contributor?

Ah. You were quoting me, but the quote you posted attributes my words to you. Hence my confusion. Sorry.

[Xenophon]

Are we replying to a simple question here or writing term papers?

My reply is the same I make to the query whether LeBron or Jordan is GOAT, Ford or Chevy is the better pickup, or Miller or Corona is the better beer: I don't care. One can choose as one will. IFF, however, they do not think their choice gives them some moral right to run civilization.