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Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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By Hereandnow
#449414
Count Lucanor wrote
I’m getting at exactly the point I already made. What you call the most important, the essential relation, that between the observer and the observed as it appears at first glance, is the least reliable one, thus it is not essential to comprehend. What’s behind this appearance, and most precisely, what it is hiding and we need to disclose, that’s what is more important. Mere contemplation and abstract theoretical reflection without actually getting our hands into the problem, doesn’t work. Praxis is the key. Religion, philosophy and science belong to that category of praxis.
Consider that the easiest to comprehend is easy because it lacks analysis. Easy like a world prior to physics is easy, no complications, ready to hand answers and spontaneous, unexamined belief. Then exact thinking steps in, attention to detail and categorical systems constructed of reliable and repeatable evidence; and so on. This is what happens to an area of inquiry when it becomes interesting and more penetrating.

Philosophy asks a question, simple as that, but what you are calling the least reliable really means the least ready to hand and familiar, and the reluctance to take it up is understandable, but then, this is the nature of philosophy: it is not about the usual affairs one reads about as a matter of course. Its questions are most unfamiliar, questions of ontology, epistemology, aesthetics, metaphysics, philosophy of mind, and so on, these are, as you say, most unreliable in terms of the most reliable everyday things we deal with.

Praxis does beg the question: what is NOT praxis? Pragmatists hold a theory of knowledge that is essentially just this, pragmatic. Heidegger holds a parallel view, though quite different of other ways. Religion belongs to this category to the extent that language itself is a pragmatic method of disclose, but as to WHAT is disclosed, this is not pragmatic. The idea I am arguing here has to do with this very end game, if you will, of disclosure.
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
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By Hereandnow
#449418
Sy Borg wrote
I arrived at philosophy via science, so I'd recommend Dawkins's The Selfish Gene, especially the chapters on game theory, eg. Memes : the new replicators and Nice guys finish first. The information is now somewhat dated due to later discoveries (esp. in epigenetics), but the dynamics are fascinating and enlightening.

I enjoy logical positivism but I would not be on a philosophy forum if I was a rank materialist. Unlike many, I do not discount metaphysics, eg. the possibility that our perceptions of actual space and time are skewed, of that other dimensions of reality exist etc. Still, like Lagaya, I enjoy science's capacity to clarify. One of the most enduring criticisms of the continental school is its tendency to be nebulous and impenetrable. As with quantum physics, I'm not sure too many have a handle on it.

One of my main concerns with all schools of philosophy, though, is the tendency to ask existential questions that can be answered by evolutionary biology or geobiology. It seems to me that examining the human condition without reference to the animal condition will result in rootless models.

Of course, all roots of knowledge are limited. That's what religion is about - the need for a solid foundation on which to build a life. Even science, no matter how deeply it has delved, runs out of explanations at the Big Bang, abiogenesis, the hard problem of consciousness, and so on. Apriori components - guesses - are unavoidable, and they will be biased, based on a simian sensory system.

In general, though, it seems to me that theists (and Continentals?) posit that it's turtles all the way down, while positivists posit that the turtles only emerged later on.

Theists will ask where the turtles came from and how turtles can just appear, if not already present in some form. Positivists will answer that turtles came from less-complex somewhat turtle-like entities.

Theists will ask why turtles should exist at all and positivists will say "not my brief".
Don't get me wrong, I am most appreciative of what science can do, but I am firmly convinced it is a very different category of thinking from philosophy, and this is pretty much for the reasons I stated. Consider this observation: Science does not ask questions about epistemology, but why is this important? Because this is the very analytic approach that undermines all of science's confidence in what it says. Certainly not that it gets things wrong, but the confidence I speak of has to do with the overreach of science's purview in the general assumption that emerges out of a science dominated pov that therein lies the bottom line for the possibilities of understanding what it means to be a human being. I am arguing that, in a word, the sciences cannot touch this. The reason I hold this rests with epistemology, ontology, ethics and aesthetics, the very fields of inquiry science simply does no deal with. Once it is clear that the essential knowledge relationship between the observed and the observer is impossible, one simply cannot go forward assuming the world of observed affairs, the very evidential basis for all scientific discovery, is stable and reliable, use Count Lucanor's term.

This is a hard move to make for one with a background in science, so used to the insights it produces. It is not turtles all the way down, a kind of resignation to indeterminacy; rather, it is a "scientific" approach to thinking about the world that is epistemically complete, one that begins with a radically different basis of assumptions, where objectivity in the usual sense of the term is out the window because this is the kind of thing that ignores the epistemic impossibility. The only way to make the world whole without this impossibility is to begin, but not stay, with transcendental idealism: all that has ever been witnessed is phenomena. This one fact is as solid as is possible. So now, it is the phenomenon that stands at the level of basic assumptions, and now human affectivity has the same ontological status as this lamp, or Jupiter. A thought has the same ontological status as my cat, for boundaries that science finds so divisive as to render certain things irrelevant because they are not quantifiable like the speed of light or plate tectonics, don't exist in this ontology. What appears AS appearance is the bottom for what exists, or IS. Why is this to be the new authoritative perspective? Because, again, all that has ever been witnessed, and all that can be witnessed is phenomena. One simply cannot experience an object as independent of the phenomenon. This is just absurd, for experience is always experience OF phenomena.

I hope the basic logic of phenomenology is clear. What seems not clear is the motivation to replace empirical science with phenomenological science when thinking philosophically. This takes study. After all, consider how long it took to inculcate the normal ontological values the underlie faith in science: an entire lifetime of formal education.
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
User avatar
By Hereandnow
#449419
There is an apparently ancient vessel, a bowl, before me. I have never seen this vessel or one like it before. I have a subjective first-person experience of this vessel. That is the given. No words, just a subjective, first-person experience of the vessel. Then what? Is there anything else I can know about this vessel and how would I go about finding out? How does a phenomenologist approach this question? How would an analytical philosopher approach this question? Following their different methods, would what they learn about the vessel be any different?

Now take the phenomenon of religion. In attempting to explain what this phenomenon, religion, is, how would the phenomenological and analytical approaches to the question differ? Would what they can learn be any different?
This may be a long paragraph. Consider your first encounter with the vessel, and ask, how do you know it is a vessel at all, that is, how does the identity of it being a "vessel" come to you such that when you apprehend its existence before you, it stands with the familiarity that you can name it, if implicitly, and if it is the case that you cannot name it, and the vessel cannot be at all pinned in your understanding, but sits there nevertheless, what is it that gives the moment of encountering it its stability, the kind of stability an infant would not have, who would just stare at the nameless distraction as a field of "blooming and buzzing" (James' famous phrase). Perhaps you see where this goes: to be an observer at all presupposes that you already are working from a repository of potentiality of possibilities, that is, memories that can rise up and meet the occasion of the encounter. You can't be a tablula rasa, because this would not be an encounter at all. You might as well be a fence post. This is a description of the way we navigate the world in our daily affairs, our being always already equipped with a history of enculturation that gives us the means to interpret things in the world, objects, people, ideas, feelings. We have language ready to hand, if you will, and so every encounter is an interpretative encounter, and the question is raised if it is at all possible to have a pure apprehension of the vessel, or is it that the language-culture-interpretation so dominates the understanding that one never sees the actuality before one; one can only "see" the world AS this or that historical matrix allows. I see a church as I walk down the street and it is perfectly clear; but someone from some 15th century African society, imagine, would be completely bewildered. This is the point. A phenomenologist gives this object a phenomenological analysis, which is very complicated. The approach is to describe the event of apprehending the vessel in the full sense of what is "there". The vessel is encountered, so the question goes immediately to the conditions of the encounter, becasue this is not an object "out there" in the everyday sense of things, but, in this analysis, an agent-object event that is in time, for the vessel is viewed in a dynamic of fluid moments, a stream of consciousness (another Jamesian term) such that, say, as you move around the vessel, perspectival changes yield different phenomenological content, but it is to be noted that though this is in flux, the identity of the vessel does not change, and so there is a principle of continuity in play. And time: as indicated above, when you encounter the vessel you already know something about encountering vessels in general, which gives you a kind of schematism, what Husserl calls a predelineation, a forehaving or foreknowing already in place, and a proper analysis must expose and describe this foreknowing tht is in the dynamic of time which describes the phenomenon. And so on. Husserl wrote an entire book called The Phenomenology of Internal Time. I mean, this is a life's work to seriously go into it.

this is sort of the way this goes. It gets very technical and when it gets to Heidegger and beyond, downright profound. I am reading Michel Henry's Essence of Manifestation, which is...difficult. Assumes Husserl's Ideas and Heidegger's Being and Time are already fairly mastered. As to the analytic approach? I'd have to think about it. I mean, which approach to apply. I read a couple papers by Strawson, Quine--Quine and his radical translation comes to mind: you're understanding that the vessel is a vessel...I'd have to look it up to actually talk like he would.
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
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By Lagayascienza
#449425
Thanks, Hereandnow for taking the time to write all that. I kinda get of it. I think. I would love to experience a purely subjective experience.

If I could rewrite the scenario I posted above it might go something like this:

"I am in an unknown space with no discernible attributes. I cannot move. Before me is an object whose attributes are totally new to me. I have no words to describe this object, just a subjective, first-person experience of it. That is all that is "given."

When I have no language to describe the object and no context, not even an idea of the sort of space in which it exists, would I then be having a pure "apprehension" of the object? Perhaps I've been unconscious and just woken up somewhere totally strange... The details of how I got into this situation don't matter for this exercise. What I'm trying to understand is what a pure encounter with a completely unknown object with no context to help me, or even words to describe what I perceive, would be like. It's not easy. But I think I can just about manage it.

You say that the phenomenological approach would then be to describe the object, to apprehend the object in the full sense of what is "there". Ok, well, it doesn't seem to have a colour, perhaps it's transparent which may be why I can't make out it's shape or get a good idea of it's size. Perhaps I saw merely a glimmer of light reflected off part of it. I can't be sure but I know there is something there. From my position in this ill defined space there is nothing I can really say about this object. To find out more, I need to investigate it. Empirically. I find that I am now able to move. I move to the object, walk around it, touch it, pick it up and feel its weight .... But once I start doing this, it's identity will begin to change, to develop. I will get a feel for texture, shape, etcetera. And I will be helpless to stop myself from trying to fit it into some mental categories that I have. Transparent, smooth, pyramidal, hard... Oh, perhaps it's a large crystal of some sort... Once I start doing this, would I still be operating phenomenologically or would this be the station where I get off the Phenomenology train and board another to AnalytiCity?

When I think about how hard it would be to have a purely subjective experience, even of an object for which I have no external reference or context or words, I can only wonder how to proceed in a more everyday scenario where there may be almost infinite points of reference. To phenomenologically analyse a whole phenomenon as various and as complex as religion I just can't imagine how it could be done. Where does phenomenology end and analysis and empiricism begin? Or, to be a thorough going phenomenologist, should it not begin at all? If so, how does one acquire knowledge of anything.

I suspect that I still haven't understood...
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
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By Pattern-chaser
#449434
Sy Borg wrote: November 8th, 2023, 2:32 pm One of my main concerns with all schools of philosophy, though, is the tendency to ask existential questions that can be answered by evolutionary biology or geobiology. It seems to me that examining the human condition without reference to the animal condition will result in rootless models.
That seems fair and reasonable. But "examining the human condition" only using "evolutionary biology or geobiology" will surely also result in incomplete findings? I think the thing is to use as many perspectives as we can find. The sciences offer one angle, all kinds of philosophy offer others, but in this case, I think the "human condition" can be considered seriously by introspection. But not only introspection, of course! The human condition is a Big Thing to investigate.
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
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By Hereandnow
#449493
Lagayscienza wrote

I am in an unknown space with no discernible attributes. I cannot move. Before me is an object whose attributes are totally new to me. I have no words to describe this object, just a subjective, first-person experience of it. That is all that is "given."

When I have no language to describe the object and no context, not even an idea of the sort of space in which it exists, would I then be having a pure "apprehension" of the object? Perhaps I've been unconscious and just woken up somewhere totally strange... The details of how I got into this situation don't matter for this exercise. What I'm trying to understand is what a pure encounter with a completely unknown object with no context to help me, or even words to describe what I perceive, would be like. It's not easy. But I think I can just about manage it.
Phenomenology is first descriptive, not speculative. What is there that must be there in order to have an experience? So the object defies description. This is impossible as stated, for inorder to set up the conditions for the hypothetical to make sense, YOU have to be there, so the question is begged: what are you? Let's say you are a consciousness, but there is also this: consciousness is always consciousness OF something. It makes no sense to refer to consciousness without its counterpart, so an analysis of what you are, entails laying out the content of your perceptual constitution. IS it possible to acknowledge anything at all in NO context? This is important. I think I said, were this the case, you would be no more that a fence post, just two object side by side, and we know this is not the case. The strangeness can never be "totally strange" for then you would run screaming, but wait, screaming requires a context of familiarity that is violated. There is no way out of this. It is simply absurd to speak of a contextless encounter or conscious state. You cannot SEE the structures of familiarity in play, but these are "eidetic" structures: ideas that give judgment itself the terms of meaning making. You can read how Husserl goes into meticulous detail in describing such things.

But you mention the "pure apprehension of the object: This is an issue that is ponderous, not unrelated to the analytic's concern with "qualia", the qualitative presence of a phenomenon qua presence. I am arguing that not only is this possible, but, while it takes practice to establish this strange new perspective of phenomenology, the doing so is a method of liberation, a climbing out of a setting cluttered with knowledge claims. this is the epoche, the phenomenological reduction: to observe the object before you with phenomenological clarity, one has to be aware that this object stands as a complex of interpretative possibilities just by being there. Perception is always apperception, and interpretative act built into the seeing of the vessel. The complexity of descriptive detail of someone like Husserl is descriptive of what remains after the reduction removes from our sight all that is not in the basic descriptive presence. Empirical science is remove altogether to make way for phenomenological science. But this takes one eventually to the bare givenness of the thing.

You see, eventually phenomenology will take the inquirer OUT of phenomenology. This is the direction of the reduction which takes us closer and closer to the bare presence. The process is apophatic. The Hindus and Buddhists have long known about this without the massive exposition. They call it neti, neti. The phenomenological reduction is aligned with the East's meditative, though the latter is a direct assault in putting in abeyance all that crowds the conscious act of being in the world.

You say that the phenomenological approach would then be to describe the object, to apprehend the object in the full sense of what is "there". Ok, well, it doesn't seem to have a colour, perhaps it's transparent which may be why I can't make out it's shape or get a good idea of it's size. Perhaps I saw merely a glimmer of light reflected off part of it. I can't be sure but I know there is something there. From my position in this ill defined space there is nothing I can really say about this object. To find out more, I need to investigate it. Empirically. I find that I am now able to move. I move to the object, walk around it, touch it, pick it up and feel its weight .... But once I start doing this, it's identity will begin to change, to develop. I will get a feel for texture, shape, etcetera. And I will be helpless to stop myself from trying to fit it into some mental categories that I have. Transparent, smooth, pyramidal, hard... Oh, perhaps it's a large crystal of some sort... Once I start doing this, would I still be operating phenomenologically or would this be the station where I get off the Phenomenology train and board another to AnalytiCity?
Phenomenology wants to talk about the structure of the event of your apperceiving the object. The details of a particular case of perceptual awareness are incidental. You stand there before an object; what does this mean? Hoe can one relate to an object at all? What constitutes an object being an object for consciousness? Kant is the grandfather of this approach. He asked, when you observe things in the world, you understand something; what is it to understand something? What is the nature of understanding something? All eyes for him are on the rational structure of an experience in the world. Richardson puts Kant like this:

A being is properly said to be known only
when the knower can make it intelligible (in what it is and how
it is) to himself and others. Hence, it must be determined to be
such and such. This process of determining (Bestimmen) the intuitively
presented being is itself a presenting of this being in
what it is "in general" - not in the sense that its universal
character as such becomes thematic, but simply in the sense
that, with the universal character in view, the knower adverts
to the individual and determines it accordingly. This universalizing
representation, which comes to the service of the singular
intuition, is more presentative than the latter, in the sense that
it seizes several individuals at once, and in virtue of this seizure is a
concept that "avails for many." Kant calls this universalized
presentation "presenting in concepts," so that it becomes a
"presentation [concept] of a presentation [intuition]." This
presentative determination of the being-to-be-known is a
judgement, and it is brought-to-pass by that power of judging
which Kant calls the "understanding" (Verstand). The process
of universalizing presentation is what Kant understands by
"thought" (Denken)


Kant talks about the stucture of experience, not this object here or that one there, but what it is to make a judgment at all. Phenomenology is like this, only it is not simply knowledge that it is interested in. For Heidegger, it is the entirety of being human. Can it even be imagined, and even made possible to understand at all, to posit what a thing is apart from what it is to know it? Call it a mental exercise, like trying to imagine a causeless event; it tells us that the knowledge relationship is part of the essence of existence, and this takes it as far as Kant would go. Now try to imagine a world free of experiential content. You find that every possible reference for claiming what a world IS refers exclusively to experience, and there is simply no way around this. This makes physicalism into what I call a bad metaphysics. THIS is Kant' Copernican Revolution, the turning of tables on science-basic-metaphysics--there is a world "out there" independent of human reality--- discovering an way to talk about the world at the level of basic questions. Of course, there is an "out there" but now the out there is part and parcel of US.
When I think about how hard it would be to have a purely subjective experience, even of an object for which I have no external reference or context or words, I can only wonder how to proceed in a more everyday scenario where there may be almost infinite points of reference. To phenomenologically analyse a whole phenomenon as various and as complex as religion I just can't imagine how it could be done. Where does phenomenology end and analysis and empiricism begin? Or, to be a thorough going phenomenologist, should it not begin at all? If so, how does one acquire knowledge of anything.
A purely subjective experience, and putting it like this is arguable, but then, putting it any way whatever is arguable, lies at the end of the reduction, which alas has to be read to be understand. It's in Husserl's Ideas. It is difficult in the same way serious meditation is difficult in that this latter requires the cancelation of everything that is not the consciousness of the meditator. Serious meditation doesn't just make one more relaxed, quite the opposite. Not a cancelling of energy but a liberation of energy, all that energy one devotes to everyday matters pulled away from these. I don't pretend to have that kind of "dissociative" ability, but I do to a degree, and the discussion of what this is all about brings the matter of religion's essence to its next stage: value and its metavalue, affectivity and its metaaffectivity, ethics and its metaethics. Remember, Eastern metaphusics is not simply arriving at some propositional end of the rainbow. It is nirvana, or Brahmin.

To cut to the chase: our propositional endeavors in all terms of engagement are only propositional in that this is the vehicle to understanding, but this begs the question, understanding what? Arguments require content. Even the austere mathematician cares along lines of each equation, and in fact, this caring is what really dominates the existence of the mathematician's engagement. The bottom line: caring and its value/metavalue counterpart are what philosophy really is seeking.
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
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By Count Lucanor
#449501
Hereandnow wrote: November 8th, 2023, 10:55 pm
Count Lucanor wrote
I’m getting at exactly the point I already made. What you call the most important, the essential relation, that between the observer and the observed as it appears at first glance, is the least reliable one, thus it is not essential to comprehend. What’s behind this appearance, and most precisely, what it is hiding and we need to disclose, that’s what is more important. Mere contemplation and abstract theoretical reflection without actually getting our hands into the problem, doesn’t work. Praxis is the key. Religion, philosophy and science belong to that category of praxis.
Consider that the easiest to comprehend is easy because it lacks analysis. Easy like a world prior to physics is easy, no complications, ready to hand answers and spontaneous, unexamined belief.
Such naive approach (not to be confused with naive realism) can only produce deception, because not only it takes illusion as what is real, but forgets the subject's preconceptions and bias, which shape that first-hand explanation. The subject and the world do not meet for the first time at that point, the subject is already immersed in the world.
Hereandnow wrote: November 8th, 2023, 10:55 pmThen exact thinking steps in, attention to detail and categorical systems constructed of reliable and repeatable evidence; and so on. This is what happens to an area of inquiry when it becomes interesting and more penetrating.
The right philosophical approach is not to accept candidly, without criticism, how things appear to the subject, and then trying to support these preconceptions with further analysis, which is already contaminated with the familiar prejudices of that time, but to question right away what things appear to be and find out what they really are.
Hereandnow wrote: November 8th, 2023, 10:55 pm Philosophy asks a question, simple as that, but what you are calling the least reliable really means the least ready to hand and familiar, and the reluctance to take it up is understandable, but then, this is the nature of philosophy: it is not about the usual affairs one reads about as a matter of course. Its questions are most unfamiliar, questions of ontology, epistemology, aesthetics, metaphysics, philosophy of mind, and so on, these are, as you say, most unreliable in terms of the most reliable everyday things we deal with.
It is the opposite. The least reliable are the ones that are ready to hand and familiar, because they are absent of the penetrating analysis that discloses the real, intricate relations. That's what philosophy and science are for.
Hereandnow wrote: November 8th, 2023, 10:55 pm Praxis does beg the question: what is NOT praxis? Pragmatists hold a theory of knowledge that is essentially just this, pragmatic. Heidegger holds a parallel view, though quite different of other ways. Religion belongs to this category to the extent that language itself is a pragmatic method of disclose, but as to WHAT is disclosed, this is not pragmatic. The idea I am arguing here has to do with this very end game, if you will, of disclosure.
Any involvement with the world that aims at reconstructing the pieces of the puzzle in the most reliable way, presupposes abandoning mere contemplation of an apparently static reality. Everything is moving, connecting with other things and constantly changing, it's dynamic, so yes, in that sense everything is praxis. Change, transformation, that is what is to be understood, and our methods of inquiry must contemplate our practical relation with reality, that is: to comprehend things, to master them, is to act upon them. Religion is an attempted answer to how the world works for the purpose of guiding human action. It's a story, a narrative, but also a practice.
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
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By Hereandnow
#449511
Count Lucanor
Such naive approach (not to be confused with naive realism) can only produce deception, because not only it takes illusion as what is real, but forgets the subject's preconceptions and bias, which shape that first-hand explanation. The subject and the world do not meet for the first time at that point, the subject is already immersed in the world.
Of course the subject is immersed in the world, just not immersed in a world of philosophy. This is true with any discipline. The trouble philosophy has starts with a lifetime of education that simply cannot go into esoteric issues, and stays in the safe zone of what is, as you say, reliable. So when one emerges from t his education of practical empirical enculturation, philosophical issues sound foreign and unreliable: As your thinking here suggests, we "rely" on what is already there, in the immersion of what becomes familiar. Ontology and epistemology are terms one doesn't even know exists.
The right philosophical approach is not to accept candidly, without criticism, how things appear to the subject, and then trying to support these preconceptions with further analysis, which is already contaminated with the familiar prejudices of that time, but to question right away what things appear to be and find out what they really are.
Couldn't have said better myself. But the question is begged: what is meant by the way things "really are"?
It is the opposite. The least reliable are the ones that are ready to hand and familiar, because they are absent of the penetrating analysis that discloses the real, intricate relations. That's what philosophy and science are for.
I think you will agree when I say that Husserl's thesis on the eidetically structured horizons of apperception are certainly NOT ready to hand and familiar in the way you mean these terms.

There is an ambiguity in the way we are taking these terms. One way to think of reliable is as you do here, meaning unthought or second guessed, but useful, like the knowledge of starting one's car. The other way is to assess the proximity of what is to be considered the most clear in the evidential grounding of premises and this takes a very distinct approach, the phenomenological reduction: The trees and clouds outside, say, are known to me, but there is "behind" this, a world of presupposed space and time and pure givenness, the intuited backdrop of everyday thinking and engaging. Kant took us here, but his agenda was strictly to discover the structures of logic in experience. Later philosophers like Husserl and Heidegger took this analytic perspective to encompass the entire horizon of experience, seeing with perfect clarity that, again, there has never been nor can there be any apprehension of the world that is not of phenomena. Worth repeating, this, because the logic is that of entailment, from being to phenomena. The two are necessarily identical, and this brings me to what reliable means here: the most epistemically reliable, that is, unassailable in the quest for certainty. Science in its answers for basic questions ends up being just the worst kind of metaphysics for working with the assumption that reality is not reducible to phenomena, it thereby posits something literally impossible to conceive.
Any involvement with the world that aims at reconstructing the pieces of the puzzle in the most reliable way, presupposes abandoning mere contemplation of an apparently static reality. Everything is moving, connecting with other things and constantly changing, it's dynamic, so yes, in that sense everything is praxis. Change, transformation, that is what is to be understood, and our methods of inquiry must contemplate our practical relation with reality, that is: to comprehend things, to master them, is to act upon them. Religion is an attempted answer to how the world works for the purpose of guiding human action. It's a story, a narrative, but also a practice.
Of course everything is moving and nothing is static, even the mind. And religion is also a "practice" in that to think and feel at all is a "practice". The question is, however, what is the nature of this religious practice, which is to ask about content at the basic level (philosophy) in the pragmatic thinking process that engages in religion. Concerned here about the basic level of assumptions, not simply what religions do in their various beliefs and dogmas, which is incidental. The question is what is religion in its nature, once the question is unburdened of these incidentals?

It is the ethical and aesthetic foundational indeterminacy of our existence. This is my definition. Of course, this invites questions.
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
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By Lagayascienza
#449514
Hereandnow, thanks for the detailed explanations in the above two posts.
You end by saying that religion is:
the ethical and aesthetic foundational indeterminacy of our existence.


I agree that in ethics and aesthetics there is much that is as yet indeterminable, mainly because there is variation in human moral and aesthetic sentiments. However, I’m not sure that ethics and aesthetics, and therefore religion, are indeterminate in the foundational or ultimate sense. This is because there is much about them that has and can be determined. And what has been determined will increase as our understanding of ourselves increases.

I sense in the Nietzschean “death of god”, expressed so powerfully and beautifully in Die fröhliche Wissenschaft, not just pessimism but also the hope Nietzsche saw in science, scepticism, and intellectual discipline as routes to mental freedom. I think science and philosophy (perhaps both analytic and phenomenological) will have yet more to say on ethics and aesthetics, and on religion.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
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By Hereandnow
#449533
Lagayscienza wrote
I agree that in ethics and aesthetics there is much that is as yet indeterminable, mainly because there is variation in human moral and aesthetic sentiments. However, I’m not sure that ethics and aesthetics, and therefore religion, are indeterminate in the foundational or ultimate sense. This is because there is much about them that has and can be determined. And what has been determined will increase as our understanding of ourselves increases.

I sense in the Nietzschean “death of god”, expressed so powerfully and beautifully in Die fröhliche Wissenschaft, not just pessimism but also the hope Nietzsche saw in science, scepticism, and intellectual discipline as routes to mental freedom. I think science and philosophy (perhaps both analytic and phenomenological) will have yet more to say on ethics and aesthetics, and on religion.
As for me, the discussion of metaethics and metaaesthetics is the second and most important part of a discussion about the essence of religion. The first is epistemology and ontology, as one has to be pried loose from standard ways of looking at the world, which is, well, more that just hard. I often say you are what you read, perhaps too often, but its true, and we are educated in a system that has conditions of conformity that respect science as the authority on matters of grounding knowledge, and have no patience at all for phenomenology, which turns this whole affair on its head. One has to read one's way out of this culture of grounded thinking. Of course, I know this also takes the impulse to do so, and this depends on how we are put together at the outset. Oh well.

I turn first to Wittgenstein's Tractatus. He says a lot of puzzling things analytic philosophers wish he hadn't said. He actually speaks about metaphysics, though he follows through with the contradictory disclaimer that such utterances are nonsense, and he says it is the rules of logic that demand this. But he does raise the question value and defines metavalue by saying:

The sense of the world must lie outside the world. In the world everything is as it is, and everything happens as it does happen: in it no value exists—and if it did exist, it would have no value. If there is any value that does have value, it must lie outside the whole sphere of what happens and is the case. For all that happens and is the case is accidental........... It must lie outside the world. So too it is impossible for there to be propositions of ethics.

Of course, this has been written about a lot. By propositions of ethics he means those that try to expose the nature of ethics, which is impossible for the same reason such talk about logic is impossible: these shows themselves only and are non contingent their nature (note that saying this is self contradictory, says Witt), which means they are absolutes, which means they are, as Kierkegaard put it, their own presuppositions, or, as Derrida put it, they have no difference/deference in their existence because they are beyond context, in the pure givenness of the world. Derrida's erasure, the crossing out of words while keeping them there, is the place we are in. A very interesting twilight world that cannot simply ignored, like Rorty does.

Value is in the presence of the world, not derived from propositions. The problems of talking like this is, well, the talk, which is under erasure. We are supposed to keep the word, because all words make some sense being that they are embedded in a language and its culture and meanings converge in the locus of the term. Imagine if I said "ubzoutejmnburr," is this nonsense? Yes, but on the other hand, it is structured in letters and their sounds. Context gives nonsense meaning, and nothing stands out of context. So value is there, in the love and hate, ice cream and stubbed toes, and we talk about these all the time, but what value refers to apart from all the possible contexts is not IN the world, as Witt says. Where is it, the good and bad and right and wrong of things? Take contingency, good and bad IN context, as in this good couch: what makes the couch good? It is comfortable, well made, attractive to the eye, etc. The mark of contingency is that one can imagine these qualities not being good, if one actually desired an uncomfortable couch, for some reason, as an artwork, perhaps. We see what made the couch good, now makes it bad. There is a paper, or a book, I can't remember, by Stanley Fish, "Is There a Text in this Class" which describes this kind of contingency very well.

But now take the noncontingent use of good and bad: we reduce the affair to the value itself, the pure phenomenon of the value of sitting comfortably and the good of it. Or more poignantly, putting one's finger under a flame and keeping it there a second or two. Now, in a context of this horrible pain, being conceived good, there would be some counter utility, like saving the lives of many in dealing with a terrorist and the like. But the pure phenomenon itself cannot be made good. Pain as a pure phenomenon is an absolute. And so is pleasure (thought issues ensue later when religion's is determined to be associated with a certain kind of value). Witt said logic and value cannot be gotten behind, and this is because they appear to us as they are intuitively, or better said, pre-intuitively, because an intuition is something recognized AS an intuition. Sticky business here. Pain lies outside the world in the metapain dimension of the pain. Note how remarkable this is. Ask me what anything is "in the world" and its "state of affairs," as Witt put it, and I can tell you, or find out and tell you. Witt's world is aligned with Heidegger's dasein, something of radical finitude. But in this finitude, there is this break, and it is most profoundly witnessed by putting the match to your finger, experiencing the pain, and realizing that you are face to face with an absolute that is NOT like an apriori deduction in logic, which is completely vacuous. Logic qua logic? Really? Who cares. Hume was clear: reason as such would annihilate human existence without flinching. But value: this is an absolute that is profoundly existential and it has all the depth of meaning as a commandment written in stone on a mountain top (I am fond of saying). Our ethical affairs, so mundane and complicated in the entanglements of the "states of affairs" of our world, are grounded in something absolute.

This argument depends on a phenomenological foundation of philosophizing. It is a sketch, really. no more.
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By Count Lucanor
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Hereandnow wrote:November 10th, 2023, 10:20 pm
Of course the subject is immersed in the world, just not immersed in a world of philosophy. This is true with any discipline. The trouble philosophy has starts with a lifetime of education that simply cannot go into esoteric issues, and stays in the safe zone of what is, as you say, reliable. So when one emerges from t his education of practical empirical enculturation, philosophical issues sound foreign and unreliable: As your thinking here suggests, we "rely" on what is already there, in the immersion of what becomes familiar. Ontology and epistemology are terms one doesn't even know exists.
I’m not sure if we’re talking about the same act of philosophical reflection here. Surely, the professional philosopher arrives to the problems with some baggage from his cultural environment and the established theoretical framework of his discipline. But as a philosopher, he is regarded in society as an specialist. I’m not referring to this, but to the common man that apprehends the world and so constructs, with his everyday engagement with the surrounding environment, a worldview. He belongs in history or in a given society to the pre-theoretical or pre-philosophical stage of knowledge, the common sense view which necessarily will become the cultural baggage that the professional philosopher or the scientist will carry with him before he starts digging into the bigger issues. It is his duty to free himself from it, and a good part of doing it implies dismantling, with systematic thought and experimentation, the ordinary illusions created from first hand experience, which appear as the most reliable. These common ideas seem rational, coherent, insofar as they provide basic inferences from naked-eye observations, notwithstanding that at the same time they make use of imagination (a necessary companion of thoughtful reflection) to fill the gaps, while being heavily influenced by cognitive dissonances.
Hereandnow wrote:November 10th, 2023, 10:20 pm
The right philosophical approach is not to accept candidly, without criticism, how things appear to the subject, and then trying to support these preconceptions with further analysis, which is already contaminated with the familiar prejudices of that time, but to question right away what things appear to be and find out what they really are.
Couldn't have said better myself. But the question is begged: what is meant by the way things "really are"?
It is meant, in our statements about the states of the world, what is necessarily true, objectively, universally, regardless of the subjects’ perception. The way that an electron really is entails, among other things, that it has a mass of 9.109 x 10 ^-31 kilograms. By saying that it “really is” we express that we rely on that statement being true independently of the existence of any subject.
Hereandnow wrote:November 10th, 2023, 10:20 pm
I think you will agree when I say that Husserl's thesis on the eidetically structured horizons of apperception are certainly NOT ready to hand and familiar in the way you mean these terms.

There is an ambiguity in the way we are taking these terms. One way to think of reliable is as you do here, meaning unthought or second guessed, but useful, like the knowledge of starting one's car. The other way is to assess the proximity of what is to be considered the most clear in the evidential grounding of premises and this takes a very distinct approach, the phenomenological reduction: The trees and clouds outside, say, are known to me, but there is "behind" this, a world of presupposed space and time and pure givenness, the intuited backdrop of everyday thinking and engaging. Kant took us here, but his agenda was strictly to discover the structures of logic in experience. Later philosophers like Husserl and Heidegger took this analytic perspective to encompass the entire horizon of experience, seeing with perfect clarity that, again, there has never been nor can there be any apprehension of the world that is not of phenomena.
Whatever we can say about the psychology of perception or the eidetic moment of apprehension of the world, if it has any bearing on the discussion of our first hand experiences, it has no bearing on the rest of our dynamic experience of the world, which has gone beyond mere contemplation and has tested its objective reality in a continuous engagement with such objects of experience. Even if they can only be apprehended as phenomena, it is with the systematic tools of science and philosophy that we can find the necessary objective connection, with a high degree of certainty, of that which makes the phenomena perceivable, the thing in itself, with the perceived phenomena. Without them, we would be at the mercy of faith.
Hereandnow wrote:November 10th, 2023, 10:20 pm
Worth repeating, this, because the logic is that of entailment, from being to phenomena. The two are necessarily identical, and this brings me to what reliable means here: the most epistemically reliable, that is, unassailable in the quest for certainty. Science in its answers for basic questions ends up being just the worst kind of metaphysics for working with the assumption that reality is not reducible to phenomena, it thereby posits something literally impossible to conceive.
Science is not metaphysics surely, but epistemology is not a competent field to say anything about the ontological commitments of science or to call the findings of science unreliable. It amounts to saying that our belief that there are actual fundamental subatomic particles comprising matter in the universe is unjustifiable or that we cannot have any certainty in the mass the electron being 9.109 x 10 ^-31 kilograms. To sustain such statements implies necessarily dismissing science altogether, and down goes any valuable philosophy with it. What will be left? Theology and epistemological nihilism, of course.
Hereandnow wrote:November 10th, 2023, 10:20 pm
Of course everything is moving and nothing is static, even the mind. And religion is also a "practice" in that to think and feel at all is a "practice". The question is, however, what is the nature of this religious practice, which is to ask about content at the basic level (philosophy) in the pragmatic thinking process that engages in religion. Concerned here about the basic level of assumptions, not simply what religions do in their various beliefs and dogmas, which is incidental. The question is what is religion in its nature, once the question is unburdened of these incidentals?

It is the ethical and aesthetic foundational indeterminacy of our existence. This is my definition. Of course, this invites questions.
To understand religion requires understanding certain social practices as they have evolved throughout history. We put them under certain category for what they share in common and these common attributes we identify them as their nature, their essence, but at the same time we consider their differences, which are as important when we want to describe a particular society. What is contingent is also part of the explanation, because it determines later developments, in other words, it is always a historical development. Also, it is one among other social practices, which have their own historical developments, so what you get is a complex and dynamic web of relations. You can’t fully comprehend concrete practices, religion included, if you don’t look at the relations they have with economy, politics, etc.
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By Hereandnow
#449576
Lagayscienza wrote
I sense in the Nietzschean “death of god”, expressed so powerfully and beautifully in Die fröhliche Wissenschaft, not just pessimism but also the hope Nietzsche saw in science, scepticism, and intellectual discipline as routes to mental freedom. I think science and philosophy (perhaps both analytic and phenomenological) will have yet more to say on ethics and aesthetics, and on religion.
See, I like Nietzsche, too. But I complain about him in for the same reason I complain about Schopenhauer: he really doesn't understand the nature of ethics/aesthetics/religion. He is an iconoclast of the first order, and post modern types make him into a kind of renaissance philosopher, by which I mean they think he and his perspectivalism is at the heart of the post modern position, the tearing down of the presumptions of truth and knowledge.

But for me, the point missed is this (and this is a radical pov vis a vis the world of science): I am convinced that our ethics and all of our value entanglements are both finite and infinite at once. The Kantian concept of metaphysics as an impossible transcendence fails to see that there are no boundaries in this noumenal world; the noumenal world IS the world, empirical or otherwise, and so, our ethics IS noumenal- or meta-ethics. The rub lies in our entanglements (and once aagain the Kierkegaardian insight from his Concept of Anxiety leaps to mind: Sin, in the existential analysis of its meaning, is found in the massive distractions of our culture, the "race" he calls it. He is saying if you really want to approach religion in its very nature, you have to liberate yourself from dasein, your finite self that takes mundane affairs as absolute, which reminds one of Paul Tillich's ultimate concern. He got it from Kierkegaard). What we seek in the evolving coming to grips with everything is liberation and enlightenment, or pragmatic ontology, with a teleology: becoming that seeks a radical consummation! Religion is just this.

Our ethics IS Ethics. The struggle to do right and not do wrong is a metaphysical struggle after all. I count this as revelatory. CHristians and other popular religion-based metaphysicians try to say this, but they are completely undisciplined in their dogmas and habits, and cling to ancient narratives that pervert their ethical and metaphysical thinking.

You know, if science were to have a voice in this, it would have to do more that simply say, as QM suggests from what I've read, that when we encounter an object, we modify the object in the encounter, and so the object we perceive is a synthesis. Well, Kant said this long, long ago, or something in the same vein. Phenomenology is just this exploration of this synthesis, and science in its future endeavors will have to move closer to just this discipline. It will then be revealed that the self, the "I" writing these words, in its palpable existence if just being here thinking and feeling, is where science will have to go. Phenomenology is the only way to address this indeterminacy. It is where religion and science come together and only here can the foundational indeterminacy of our existence be addressed.
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By Hereandnow
#449586

I’m not sure if we’re talking about the same act of philosophical reflection here. Surely, the professional philosopher arrives to the problems with some baggage from his cultural environment and the established theoretical framework of his discipline. But as a philosopher, he is regarded in society as an specialist. I’m not referring to this, but to the common man that apprehends the world and so constructs, with his everyday engagement with the surrounding environment, a worldview. He belongs in history or in a given society to the pre-theoretical or pre-philosophical stage of knowledge, the common sense view which necessarily will become the cultural baggage that the professional philosopher or the scientist will carry with him before he starts digging into the bigger issues. It is his duty to free himself from it, and a good part of doing it implies dismantling, with systematic thought and experimentation, the ordinary illusions created from first hand experience, which appear as the most reliable. These common ideas seem rational, coherent, insofar as they provide basic inferences from naked-eye observations, notwithstanding that at the same time they make use of imagination (a necessary companion of thoughtful reflection) to fill the gaps, while being heavily influenced by cognitive dissonances.
I don't argue against any of this. The devil is in the details: dismantling? This is a reductive move, dismissing what lies outside of the inquiry to isolate what the analysis is all about. Philosophy has one job: to do this reduction down to the level of the most basic assumptions of knowledge claims, which means looking into the the very nature of what it is to even have a knowledge claim. Hence the philosophical category, epistemology. Epistemology is the study of what it means for S to know P, qua knowing at all, and this leads the relation between the knower and the known. I begin such an inquiry with the most basic question: what is this relationship about? How can describe it? What are the features of it that are in play? I mean, if I were a physicist asking about the relation between two things, this would not only be a very good line of questioning; it would be the only way to approach it. So my inquiry into the nature of religion begins with this simple, in terms of the way the original question is conceived, exposure of what this relation really is, at the most basic level.

To know a relationship, I have to know what is being related to what. Here, it is this, call it egoic end of the epistemological relation. Describing this end is going to be a principle concern. I cannot imagine a more sound way to proceed, and the very first thing I encounter is the need for a principle, something is true for all cases, that is descriptive of relations between objects, and when I make this move to the most basic description, I find causality. This is simply manifestly true, but at any rate, I find backing by the quintessential analytic philosopher, Willard Quine holds that

the terms that play a leading role in a good conceptual apparatus are terms that promise to play a
leading role in causal explanation; and causal explanation is polarized. Causal explanations of
psychology are to be sought in physiology, of physiology in biology, of biology in chemistry,
and of chemistry in physics—in the elementary physical states


Of course, Quine was no absolutist, and argued for "indeterminacy" at the very foundation of our knowledge claims, and in fact, he is partly where I got the term for my own position. But he is lso the source of the rub: when I try to understand the relation between the egoic end of the relation and the thing before it as a knowledge claim relation, causality simply, and completely fails. It is not as if the idea holds some promise.I might as well be be talking about the worst historical religious narrative to do my explaining (as Kierkegaard put it, one myth replacing another?). The trouble is so emphatic because causality is not simply insufficient or inadequate. It is a concept that is utterly alien epistemic connectivity. The move is not implication, but entailment: there is nothing in the concept of causality, conceived as an apriori principle or as an evolutionary innateness, that is epistemic.

One would have to redefine the term itself to make it work, and this is the alternative we end up with in the phenomenological exposition.
It is meant, in our statements about the states of the world, what is necessarily true, objectively, universally, regardless of the subjects’ perception. The way that an electron really is entails, among other things, that it has a mass of 9.109 x 10 ^-31 kilograms. By saying that it “really is” we express that we rely on that statement being true independently of the existence of any subject.
But this begs the question of the epistemic relation. It certainly is not the case that what you say about the electron is false. Rather, such talk belongs to physics. The inquiry into the nature of religion only takes physics into account when it conceives of the indeterminacy of its claims. As to the many descriptive and equational propositions that constitute it, each one yields to an aporia when put under inquiry. This foundational aporia is where religion's foundational affirmations begin. This is an important point to keep in mind: Metaphysics is IN physics. This latter is taken to be the authority on basic thinking as a matter of course in the culture of science (and general culture), and this leads in the minds of most to a metaphysics of science, which is usually some for of materialism-physicalism and its variations. Why metaphysics? Physicists don't really talk about metaphsyics, of course. I speak here of the default understanding of the world IN the assumed unquestioned privilege of science: this is an approach that is "explicitly silent" on ethics and aesthetics and epistemology and ontology, and therefore has little or nothing to say here.

Whatever we can say about the psychology of perception or the eidetic moment of apprehension of the world, if it has any bearing on the discussion of our first hand experiences, it has no bearing on the rest of our dynamic experience of the world, which has gone beyond mere contemplation and has tested its objective reality in a continuous engagement with such objects of experience. Even if they can only be apprehended as phenomena, it is with the systematic tools of science and philosophy that we can find the necessary objective connection, with a high degree of certainty, of that which makes the phenomena perceivable, the thing in itself, with the perceived phenomena. Without them, we would be at the mercy of faith.
I like that, "at the mercy of faith." Well said, and I for one am almost singularly motivated to avoid just his. I take religion seriously because I am sure that it is a deeply important dimension of our existence, once the incidentals of its entanglements are cleared away. It is far beyond the sedative of Marx or the fear of Hume.

The thing in itself is a problem. To make sense of a proposed method of discovery, the method has to have within it the possibility of discovery. It has to have that openness that is unique to the purpose of inquiry. What is sought here is the essence of religion, so the matter turns to examining the religious phenomenon itself. I don't look to science for the reason that philosophy, the inquiring at the most basic level, looks to the presuppositions of science, which is again what epistemology and ontology are about. And then, science does not even begin to examine the most salient feature of religion: the radical affectivity of our existence, and I refer to by far the most salient feature of our existence and existence period, for apart from affectivity, the world is all that is the case, Wittgenstein's states of affairs, or Quine's naturalism, and this as such, in all of its factuality, completely without value. There is no value in a fact qua fact (Wittgenstein argues this in the Tractatus, the Lecture on Ethics and elsewhere) ; might as well be nothing at all.

Affectivity, by any standard of ontology, is astoundingly different, sui generis, this being-of-mattering-and-importance. Science cannot understand this because it is not observable. What is not observable? The dimension of good and bad affectivity possesses. Take two facts: here the distance between the earth and the moon measured in kilometers; there an occasion of agonizing pain. And now the analysis. The latter can be reduced to the former's ontology, if you will, in talk about physical systems agitated, neuronal firings, the evolutionary "choices" of pain as an anatomical feature that is conducive to survival and reproduction; and on and on. One could fill volumes. But now try the phenomenological reduction, and remove the factual content, the explanatory matrix that, to use their language, regionalizes and quantifies what stands there before you, the pain qua pain. Not tough to do in such an intense example: just observe the agony, pretty much all one can do when in actual agony. But the point: there is a residuum that remains after the factual reduction and the understanding's contexts are suspended. This is what Moore called a "non natural property" and I really don't care much for Moore usually, but it does put a finger on something of great importance, which is that the pain is bad in an altogether non natural and nonfactual (recalling Wittgenstein's Lecture on Ethics) way. It is "stand alone" in its nature. It cannot be assailed, undercut or outstripped. One can relativize it, but then the matter would turn to the conditions that make pain ambiguous in certain settings. And pain can be actually ambiguous, as in something bitter sweet, but it has to understood that when we call things GOOD and BAD in this non natural sense, we are settingup categories that are not in the world, but in the categorical treatment of the world, a Manichean division making that categorical thinking (all thinking, that is) creates. Talk about the GOOD and BAD like this is to point out a dimension of (our) existence, not a quantifiable substance. (Indeed, when science quantifies the world with its measurements, quantifications about other quantifications, note that a. there are no quantifications "out there", and b. such knowledge claims have no qualitative dimension. The world we confront in actuality is a vast horizon of qualitative existence and this makes science's claims to knowledge particularly dubious in addressing foundational questions).
Science is not metaphysics surely, but epistemology is not a competent field to say anything about the ontological commitments of science or to call the findings of science unreliable. It amounts to saying that our belief that there are actual fundamental subatomic particles comprising matter in the universe is unjustifiable or that we cannot have any certainty in the mass the electron being 9.109 x 10 ^-31 kilograms. To sustain such statements implies necessarily dismissing science altogether, and down goes any valuable philosophy with it. What will be left? Theology and epistemological nihilism, of course.
Phenomenology does not throw justified belief to the wind. It simply attends to a different field of inquiry. Physics cannot be assailed on any issue that it raises simply because it doesn't talk about these things any more than it talks about plumbing or the art of geisha. It is about the presuppositions of science. You will find those most devoted to science in philosophy do not believe at all that science rests on a pillar of certainty. They know full well it doesn't and they've all read Kant and they know one will never ever get beyond the the essential epistemic problems he he raises, how it synthetic apriori judgment is possible: this Kantian Critique is the hard way to say the very easy thing I have been putting out there (which, btw, I got from Rorty), namely, that epistemic connectivity is impossible if the bottom line for all connectivity of any kind itself is causality.

Only a fool would argue that science has it all wrong. But it also takes a fool to argue that a physicist can through her knowledge about physics tell us how to dance the tango, or think about philosophy.
To understand religion requires understanding certain social practices as they have evolved throughout history. We put them under certain category for what they share in common and these common attributes we identify them as their nature, their essence, but at the same time we consider their differences, which are as important when we want to describe a particular society. What is contingent is also part of the explanation, because it determines later developments, in other words, it is always a historical development. Also, it is one among other social practices, which have their own historical developments, so what you get is a complex and dynamic web of relations. You can’t fully comprehend concrete practices, religion included, if you don’t look at the relations they have with economy, politics, etc.
And if religion were simply a vacuous social phenomenon, I would agree. But even vacuous social phenomena have an analytic dimension that goes beyond the explicit beliefs it has. I may believe in a sun god, and this may be grounded a cultural setting that has this belief firmly and systematically embedded in everything else. The anthropological way of understanding this would be, perhaps, pretty complicated and historical, but philosophy asks, If you believe in this, let us first understand what it is to believe at all. Obviously, the historical account possesses a multiplicity of incidentals that is discarded readily, for all we want to know is what it means to know, and once this reductive process is complete we have a philosophical perspective. What happens to the ontology, the god himself? Once the justificatory review is in place, he vanishes in the epistemic revelation. But also, I care deeply about my belief and the sun god belief gives relief to my world through supplications. This engenders the question about why one is born to suffer and die such that such relief is necessary, and now we are deep in the ethical indeterminacy of human existence, which I hold is principle part of the essence of religion.
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By Count Lucanor
#449593
Hereandnow wrote: November 12th, 2023, 7:57 pm
I don't argue against any of this. The devil is in the details: dismantling? This is a reductive move, dismissing what lies outside of the inquiry to isolate what the analysis is all about. Philosophy has one job: to do this reduction down to the level of the most basic assumptions of knowledge claims, which means looking into the the very nature of what it is to even have a knowledge claim. Hence the philosophical category, epistemology. Epistemology is the study of what it means for S to know P, qua knowing at all, and this leads the relation between the knower and the known. I begin such an inquiry with the most basic question: what is this relationship about? How can describe it? What are the features of it that are in play? I mean, if I were a physicist asking about the relation between two things, this would not only be a very good line of questioning; it would be the only way to approach it. So my inquiry into the nature of religion begins with this simple, in terms of the way the original question is conceived, exposure of what this relation really is, at the most basic level.
When you say "philosophy has one job" and that it is an epistemic reduction, concerned only with knowledge claims, we arrive to the impoverishment of philosophy. The world is no longer an object of inquiry, because supposedly, according to phenomenalism, we have no access to any independent reality, but only to phenomena, that is, the objects within consciousness. The disputes against phenomenalism and antirealist (idealist) phenomenology are well known and I'm not going to repeat that debate now, but concerning the approach to the study of religion I will recapitulate my case: the basic scheme, the abstraction that might be regarded as "the essence" is an impoverished reduction that can only accommodate a superficial analysis, committed only by principle to the essence within the interpretation, to the abstraction process itself, away from all the richness of the concrete realities. As Czech philosopher Kosic puts it :

"The directness of 'essential' thought skips the essential. Its chase after the essential ends in hunting down a thing without its essence, a mere abstraction or triviality"

What we are after is not the abstract concept of religion, but religion itself. Let's not complicate ourselves asking whether our inquiry into the matter is scientific or philosophical (one cannot go too far without the other), nor relegate or reduce the scientific part to physics, but let's put the object of our investigation where it belongs: in the complex web of the social system, in a totality that is to be comprehended as a concrete realization, a product of human action, which has a genealogy, a development, a history. As such, it cannot be eternized in a fixed concept, its supposed universal, timeless essentiality. We can surely make abstractions of the concrete practices of religion and come up with some common themes, but this implies a repetitive journey from the particular and concrete to the general and abstract, and back to the concrete. Marx's account of religion as "the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of our soulless conditions" seems pretty accurate when describing modern forms of religion, but not necessarily applies to all of human history. No one thinks the pharaohs were oppressed creatures.
Hereandnow wrote: November 12th, 2023, 7:57 pm
Phenomenology does not throw justified belief to the wind. It simply attends to a different field of inquiry. Physics cannot be assailed on any issue that it raises simply because it doesn't talk about these things any more than it talks about plumbing or the art of geisha. It is about the presuppositions of science. You will find those most devoted to science in philosophy do not believe at all that science rests on a pillar of certainty. They know full well it doesn't and they've all read Kant and they know one will never ever get beyond the the essential epistemic problems he he raises, how it synthetic apriori judgment is possible: this Kantian Critique is the hard way to say the very easy thing I have been putting out there (which, btw, I got from Rorty), namely, that epistemic connectivity is impossible if the bottom line for all connectivity of any kind itself is causality.
I disagree. One could expect that from scientists or philosophers of science not strongly committed to realism, but that is hardly the norm in the disciplines of science and materialist ontology. No discipline rests on the absoluteness of certainty, but that's not to say they become agnostic in the face of the possibility of discovery of universal and necessary truths. That's why I'd rather look at Bunge instead of Rorty.
Hereandnow wrote: November 12th, 2023, 7:57 pm
And if religion were simply a vacuous social phenomenon, I would agree. But even vacuous social phenomena have an analytic dimension that goes beyond the explicit beliefs it has. I may believe in a sun god, and this may be grounded a cultural setting that has this belief firmly and systematically embedded in everything else. The anthropological way of understanding this would be, perhaps, pretty complicated and historical, but philosophy asks, If you believe in this, let us first understand what it is to believe at all. Obviously, the historical account possesses a multiplicity of incidentals that is discarded readily, for all we want to know is what it means to know, and once this reductive process is complete we have a philosophical perspective. What happens to the ontology, the god himself? Once the justificatory review is in place, he vanishes in the epistemic revelation. But also, I care deeply about my belief and the sun god belief gives relief to my world through supplications. This engenders the question about why one is born to suffer and die such that such relief is necessary, and now we are deep in the ethical indeterminacy of human existence, which I hold is principle part of the essence of religion.
But something being a social phenomenon is exactly different from being vacuous. Actually, it is because of its social determination, its relation with power and ideology, that it becomes relevant. Relevance here means, of course, not a "deeply important dimension of our existence", but a persistent influence over truly important dimensions of human existence, an influence that rests, precisely, on the "incidentals of its entanglements", which is the reason why we can do away with it. We don't need it and we could be better off without it.
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
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By Sy Borg
#449597
Count Lucanor wrote: November 13th, 2023, 12:57 am
Hereandnow wrote: November 12th, 2023, 7:57 pm
I don't argue against any of this. The devil is in the details: dismantling? This is a reductive move, dismissing what lies outside of the inquiry to isolate what the analysis is all about. Philosophy has one job: to do this reduction down to the level of the most basic assumptions of knowledge claims, which means looking into the the very nature of what it is to even have a knowledge claim. Hence the philosophical category, epistemology. Epistemology is the study of what it means for S to know P, qua knowing at all, and this leads the relation between the knower and the known. I begin such an inquiry with the most basic question: what is this relationship about? How can describe it? What are the features of it that are in play? I mean, if I were a physicist asking about the relation between two things, this would not only be a very good line of questioning; it would be the only way to approach it. So my inquiry into the nature of religion begins with this simple, in terms of the way the original question is conceived, exposure of what this relation really is, at the most basic level.
When you say "philosophy has one job" and that it is an epistemic reduction, concerned only with knowledge claims, we arrive to the impoverishment of philosophy. The world is no longer an object of inquiry, because supposedly, according to phenomenalism, we have no access to any independent reality, but only to phenomena, that is, the objects within consciousness.
It's a fair point, really. Our senses are simply not evolved to perceive many things that are going on in reality. Consider how many cause-effect relations slip under our radar.

Science has profoundly extended our range of perception. Yet - in reality - we are tiny streaks on an immense four-dimensional fractal helix that is the travel of the Earth through space in time.

Reality is more bizarre than we can imagine, but evolution filters out enough weirdness for us to survive and reproduce.
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