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Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
By DustinM
#438780
I'm trying to formulate an idea of epistemology and I would like to see if it stands up to scrutiny. Imagine you have three sources of authority in your model of epistemology, A, B and C. Sometimes those sources disagree or contradict each other, so you use another source, which we'll call D, to adjudicate the disagreement and decide which one is correct. Given that type of scenario, would it be logically sound to say D has a higher tier of authority than A, B, and C?

Assuming that's true, a simplified secular epistemology might look like this:
1. Reason

2. Intuition, sense data, outcomes, authority figures (doctors, scientists, etc.)
And a simplified religious epistemology might look like this:
1. The Bible

2. Intuition, outcomes, authority figures (pastor, theologian), sense data
Regardless of what you put in the #1 slot, there must be only one authority source in that slot because it there were two authorities there, they might disagree, which would require another higher authority to adjudicate the disagreement.

Does that make sense?
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By Leontiskos
#438808
DustinM wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:21 pm I'm trying to formulate an idea of epistemology and I would like to see if it stands up to scrutiny. Imagine you have three sources of authority in your model of epistemology, A, B and C. Sometimes those sources disagree or contradict each other, so you use another source, which we'll call D, to adjudicate the disagreement and decide which one is correct. Given that type of scenario, would it be logically sound to say D has a higher tier of authority than A, B, and C?

Assuming that's true, a simplified secular epistemology might look like this:
1. Reason

2. Intuition, sense data, outcomes, authority figures (doctors, scientists, etc.)
And a simplified religious epistemology might look like this:
1. The Bible

2. Intuition, outcomes, authority figures (pastor, theologian), sense data
Regardless of what you put in the #1 slot, there must be only one authority source in that slot because it there were two authorities there, they might disagree, which would require another higher authority to adjudicate the disagreement.

Does that make sense?
This makes sense, and I think you are correct. There must be a court of highest appeal. If the two highest courts of appeal share the exact same level of authority, and a dispute between them is adjudicated, then there must have been some other (possibly implicit) court of appeal that trumped them both, providing the adjudication.
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle and Aquinas
User avatar
By Consul
#438809
Our natural sources of belief-justification and knowledge:

* sensory perception
* introspection
* rational intuition (reason)
* recollection (memory)
* testification (testimony)

Supernaturalists claim that there are additional sources:

* extrasensory perception (clairvoyance, precognition, telepathy)
* mystical vision or intuition (distinct from rational intuition)
* divine revelation
Location: Germany
User avatar
By Consul
#438811
Appeals to "holy scriptures" such as the Bible and the Koran are appeals to testimonial evidence.
Location: Germany
User avatar
By Consul
#438812
Consul wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:20 pm Appeals to "holy scriptures" such as the Bible and the Koran are appeals to testimonial evidence.
So are all other appeals to (alleged) authorities.
Location: Germany
User avatar
By Consul
#438814
Consul wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:08 pm Our natural sources of belief-justification and knowledge:

* testification (testimony)
Testification is communication of information, but it's not a source of knowledge unless it's a communication of true information. You cannot acquire knowledge on the basis of false testimony.
Location: Germany
By DustinM
#438816
Consul wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:08 pm Our natural sources of belief-justification and knowledge:

* sensory perception
* introspection
* rational intuition (reason)
* recollection (memory)
* testification (testimony)

Supernaturalists claim that there are additional sources:

* extrasensory perception (clairvoyance, precognition, telepathy)
* mystical vision or intuition (distinct from rational intuition)
* divine revelation
I'm not disagreeing, but I don't think that addresses my question. I'm not asking about specific sources. I'm asking about a general principle that says 'If a method is used to adjudicate disagreements between two sources, that means the method has a higher level of authority than those two sources.'
User avatar
By Pattern-chaser
#438850
DustinM wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:43 pm I'm asking about a general principle that says 'If a method is used to adjudicate disagreements between two sources, that means the method has a higher level of authority than those two sources.'
If "method D" is the arbiter in the case of disagreement between A, B, or C, then D has a higher or greater level of authority then A, B, or C. This is true by (your) definition.
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
By Carter Blunt
#438853
DustinM wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:21 pm Given that type of scenario, would it be logically sound to say D has a higher tier of authority than A, B, and C?
Not really. I might adjudicate one disagreement by consulting a plumber, and another by consulting an electrician.
User avatar
By Consul
#438889
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 28th, 2023, 7:46 am
DustinM wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:43 pm I'm asking about a general principle that says 'If a method is used to adjudicate disagreements between two sources, that means the method has a higher level of authority than those two sources.'
If "method D" is the arbiter in the case of disagreement between A, B, or C, then D has a higher or greater level of authority then A, B, or C. This is true by (your) definition.
A "meta-arbiter" would have to be an epistemic source other than those mentioned above which guarantees us independently what the most reliable one is that trumps all others in the case of conflict or contradiction. But there is no such thing; and, anyway, if there were a meta-arbiter, there would have to be a "meta-meta-arbiter" guaranteeing its reliability, and so forth.

From the naturalist perspective of empirical science, sensory perception/observation is the most authoritative (because most reliable) epistemic source with regard to knowledge of synthetic truths at least.
Location: Germany
User avatar
By Leontiskos
#438894
Consul wrote: March 28th, 2023, 11:52 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 28th, 2023, 7:46 am
DustinM wrote: March 27th, 2023, 11:43 pm I'm asking about a general principle that says 'If a method is used to adjudicate disagreements between two sources, that means the method has a higher level of authority than those two sources.'
If "method D" is the arbiter in the case of disagreement between A, B, or C, then D has a higher or greater level of authority then A, B, or C. This is true by (your) definition.
A "meta-arbiter" would have to be an epistemic source other than those mentioned above which guarantees us independently what the most reliable one is that trumps all others in the case of conflict or contradiction. But there is no such thing; and, anyway, if there were a meta-arbiter, there would have to be a "meta-meta-arbiter" guaranteeing its reliability, and so forth.
You err in thinking that the question has something to do with guarantees. The question has nothing to do with guarantees.
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle and Aquinas
User avatar
By Consul
#438896
Those acknowledging scientific empiricism as the highest epistemic authority (concerning synthetic truths at least) can argue that there is a retrospective meta-justification for it:

QUOTE>
"The substantive picture of nature’s ways that is secured through our empirical inquiries is itself ultimately justified, retrospectively as it were, through validating the presuppositions on whose basis inquiry has proceeded. As we develop science there must come a 'closing of the circle.' The world-picture that science delivers into our hands must eventually become such as to explain how it is that creatures such as ourselves, emplaced in the world as we are, investigating it by the processes we actually use, should do fairly well at developing a workable view of that world. The 'validation of scientific method' must in the end itself become scientifically validated. Science must (and can) retrovalidate itself by providing the material (in terms of a science-based world-view) for justifying the methods of science.
The rational structure of the overall process of justification accordingly looks as follows:

1. We use various sorts of experiential data as evidence for objective fact.
2. We do this in the first instance for practical reasons, faute de mieux, because only by proceeding in this way can we hope to resolve our questions with any degree of rational satisfaction.

But as we proceed two things happen:

(i) On the pragmatic side we find that we obtain a world picture on whose basis we can operate effectively. (Pragmatic revalidation.)
(ii) On the cognitive side we find that we arrive at a picture of the world and our place within it that provides an explanation of how it is that we are enabled to get things (roughly) right—that we are in fact justified in using our phenomenal data as data of objective fact. (Explanatory revalidation.)

The success at issue here is twofold—both in terms of understanding (cognition) and in terms of application (praxis). And it is this ultimate success that justifies and rationalizes, retrospectively, our evidential proceedings. Though the process is cyclic and circular, there is nothing vicious and vitiating about it. The reasoning at issue is not a matter of linear sequence but of a systemic coherence prepared to accept the circles and cycles of cognitive feedback.
We thus arrive at the overall situation of a dual 'retrojustification.' For all the presuppositions of inquiry are ultimately justified because a 'wisdom of hindsight' enables us to see that by their means we have been able to achieve both practical success and a theoretical understanding of our place in the world’s scheme of things."

(Rescher, Nicholas. Reality and Its Appearance. New York: Continuum, 2010. pp. 60-62)
<QUOTE

They can also argue against epistemic rationalism (about synthetic truths) that…

QUOTE>
"…philosophical intuition is and always will be laughably unreliable."
(p. 144)

"I do not see what there is to be learned (from intuitions) about fundamentals, especially about ontology. A reflective equilibrium among intuitions is unlikely to deliver any sort of existence proof (unless perhaps a proof of the existence of God that is better than expert philosophical theology has managed to produce in the past three thousand years)."
(p. 148)

"Suppose we are metaphilosophers (as today we are) and we are searching for a sound way of garnering truths. Many methods of inquiry are on offer. There is of course scientific method. There is devotion to Moorean common sense. There is phenomenology. There are intuitions and the method of reflective equilibrium. There are, allegedly, 'higher' sources of illumination, from classical divine revelation to mysticism to current New Age…well, we are in California. How to choose? (Not that the choice must be unique.)

Unfortunately, metaphilosophy is branch of philosophy, and so there is an inevitable bootstrap problem. But, Armstrong argues, at least we can fairly theory-neutrally take a look at track records. Not at track records of producing truths, because we could not establish those without begging some of the crucial questions. Rather, we can look at track records of producing consensus, of getting people to change their minds on the basis of reasons, of getting them to stop disagreeing and also to agree on novel propositions. Consensus production is no guarantee of reliability, of course, but it is the closest thing we have to a metaphilosophical mark or indicator of soundness.

Now, of the methods I listed a moment ago, which have historically been good at producing consensus? One stands out: Scientific method. A second is salient as well, though in a slightly degenerate way, that of common sense. (One might say that 'common sense' does not produce consensus, but is just de facto consensus. But there is, if you will, a 'method' of common sense; it is the ordinary, unreflective use of perception and memory.) What of the others?

In particular, what of philosophical method taken as a whole? There is a corner in which the philosophical track record is good: logic. Otherwise, the history of philosophy is a disgusting mess of squabbling, inconclusion, dogma and counter-dogma, trendy patois, fashionable but actually groundless assumptions, vacillation from one paradigm to another, mere speculation, and sheer abuse. Nothing in that sordid history can be called progress, except what derives directly from developments in logic or in science, and consensus has always been limited to what are really very small groups of people confined in small geographical regions over short periods of time. If we use consensus production as our yardstick, then – and again, I know no other – we find that as between science, common sense and philosophy, science and common sense do very well while philosophy comes in a pathetically weak third. I take this seriously. And I believe that a felicitous explanatory coordination between common sense and science is the best that philosophy can hope to achieve."
(pp. 148-9)

(Lycan, William G. "Bealer on the Possibility of Philosophical Knowledge." Philosophical Studies 81 (1996): 143-150.)
———
"Philosophers who give great weight to intuitions need to offer some account of why such intuitions are reliable and are to be trusted; at least, they need to sketch how we would have acquired a reliable capacity of this sort. Descartes based his confidence in thought processes that involve 'clear and distinct ideas' upon the existence of a good God who would not deceive him. Upon what do contemporary philosophers of intuition base their claims? Of course, if the purpose of such philosophy is merely to codify and systematize the intuitions that (for whatever reason) are held, then a philosophy built upon intuitions will need no further basis. And it will have no further validity."

(Nozick, Robert. Invariances: The Structure of the Objective World. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2001. p. 125)
<QUOTE
Location: Germany
By DustinM
#438936
Consul wrote: March 28th, 2023, 11:52 amA "meta-arbiter" would have to be an epistemic source other than those mentioned above which guarantees us independently what the most reliable one is that trumps all others in the case of conflict or contradiction. But there is no such thing; and, anyway, if there were a meta-arbiter, there would have to be a "meta-meta-arbiter" guaranteeing its reliability, and so forth.

From the naturalist perspective of empirical science, sensory perception/observation is the most authoritative (because most reliable) epistemic source with regard to knowledge of synthetic truths at least.
I disagree. We can logically say one source of knowledge is more authoritative than another source without creating an infinte daisy chain of 'meta-arbiters.'

Also, I'm not suggesting any of these sources are authoritative in a 100% rational certainty sense. I'm just saying a model of epistemology should be internally consistent. I'm preparing for a debate on religious epistemology and my opponent advocates for a 'Collective Witness Model' that uses 5 'witnesses' of knowledge, all equal in authority, to know the "mind and will of God." I have many problems with the model, including how he ignores the fact that the model is heavily reliant on his own logic, perception, and ability to properly balance the witnesses.
By Gertie
#438953
DustinM wrote: March 28th, 2023, 9:13 pm
Consul wrote: March 28th, 2023, 11:52 amA "meta-arbiter" would have to be an epistemic source other than those mentioned above which guarantees us independently what the most reliable one is that trumps all others in the case of conflict or contradiction. But there is no such thing; and, anyway, if there were a meta-arbiter, there would have to be a "meta-meta-arbiter" guaranteeing its reliability, and so forth.

From the naturalist perspective of empirical science, sensory perception/observation is the most authoritative (because most reliable) epistemic source with regard to knowledge of synthetic truths at least.
I disagree. We can logically say one source of knowledge is more authoritative than another source without creating an infinte daisy chain of 'meta-arbiters.'

Also, I'm not suggesting any of these sources are authoritative in a 100% rational certainty sense. I'm just saying a model of epistemology should be internally consistent. I'm preparing for a debate on religious epistemology and my opponent advocates for a 'Collective Witness Model' that uses 5 'witnesses' of knowledge, all equal in authority, to know the "mind and will of God." I have many problems with the model, including how he ignores the fact that the model is heavily reliant on his own logic, perception, and ability to properly balance the witnesses.
We generally each rely on our first person assessments as laid out by Consul, and if disputes arise there are methods of third person falsification for issues which are third person accessible. 

This third person falsifiability is generally considered to be more reliable/objective.  And logic, reason and theories also derive from our observations of how the world works.

The caveat being that we humans are flawed and limited observers/thinkers and knowers of reality who create experiential and theoretical models of the world, which are judged by factors such as their coherence, reliability and predictability. 

There is no ultimate authority.  Unless there is some way of accessing a perfect, unlimited (omniscient/god's eye) pov.  The problem with such claims is that they're unfalsifiable using the usual third person criteria for reliability.


Now if you have a situation where say 5 people claim to witness a miracle or something which our agregated knowledge says should be impossible and isn't falsifiable through repeatability, you have to weigh that testimony against that agregated 'canon' of knowledge of how the world works. There is no authoritative way of doing that. It might be a genuine discovery, or it might be a lie, an allegory, delusion, trick, misunderstanding, etc.

If it's a case of a second/third hand report written down 2000 years ago where there's a story that 500 people witnessed a miracle of the resurrected Jesus, that sounds credible because it's a large number. But you have additional layers of uncertainty in it being 'hearsay', and limited access to the thinking, world view and motives of the person who eventually wrote the report. So when Paul reports that 500 people witnessed the resurrected Jesus for example, we have to first understand what Paul thought Jesus was. Paul didn't believe Jesus was a man, and after his crucifiction Paul's own witness of Jesus wasn't as a man, rather a presence experienced during some sort of episode. Could a group of people have had an experience of a presence, 'felt' the holy spirit among them, started speaking in tongues and joyfully reported this experience to others, with Paul eventually hearing about it and putting his own theological construction on it? Could be...
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By thrasymachus
#438960
Consul wrote
"Philosophers who give great weight to intuitions need to offer some account of why such intuitions are reliable and are to be trusted; at least, they need to sketch how we would have acquired a reliable capacity of this sort. Descartes based his confidence in thought processes that involve 'clear and distinct ideas' upon the existence of a good God who would not deceive him. Upon what do contemporary philosophers of intuition base their claims? Of course, if the purpose of such philosophy is merely to codify and systematize the intuitions that (for whatever reason) are held, then a philosophy built upon intuitions will need no further basis. And it will have no further validity."

Philosophy built on intuitions? This sounds like Husserl, but I am sure that is not what Nozick had in mind; though he hovers around this.

One would have to isolate the intuition from the cognitive claim on it in order to make an affirmation. Does analysis of an intuition, something even as strong as say, causality, ever yield an intuition as such? Or isn't it that an intuition is already inextricable bound to an historical knowledge claim, and the best one can do is deal with paradigms just like empirical science does?

No, it is not intuition. It is hermeneutics. This is the bottom line....with the only exception being meta-ethics/meta-value/metaaesthetics (Wittgenstein agrees in his Tractatus. One cannot speak an intuition).

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