Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belinda]

James S Saint wrote Very materialist James! If you inject enough scepticism into your view you see that the existence of subjective perspectives is enough to show that even if there be just one Earth, the perspectives on it are several and various.

"If everyone sees it differently, then it doesn't exist?"

It seems to me that if everyone sees something, even if differently, then it MUST exist. That means that each of their perspectives is what is false, but what they mis-perceive about must be real.

The existence of subjectivity has no relevance to the objective.

True. But the devil is in that 'something'. An idealist says there is no 'something'and mind is ontologically primal, and a materialist says there is a 'something' which is ontologically primal.But actually, both together are true, the material is not inconsistent with the mental.The perspectives are many and various, and each and every one of them reflects a true view of the material. But some perspectives are truer than others.The perspectives of Socrates and Einstein are truer than those of a house mouse and her husband.

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Meleagar wrote

The problem is transferring the motivational perspective from being derived from "truth", to being derived from self. Instead of being commanded by a network of truths what to do, how to feel, etc., I get to create that myself. I enjoy the world and the roles I choose to play in it immensely.

I dont believe that you have reinvented the wheel.Or the way to bake bread. Or how to tame and milk a cow.Or how to paint like Michelangelo. And the et cetera is as long as human culture itself.

[Meleagar]

True. But the devil is in that 'something'. An idealist says there is no 'something'and mind is ontologically primal, and a materialist says there is a 'something' which is ontologically primal.

Idealists don't claim that there is no "something"; if there is no something then we're talking about only nothing existing, which is nihilism. You and others are conflating "something" with the materialist view of what "something" must be.

I dont believe that you have reinvented the wheel.Or the way to bake bread. Or how to tame and milk a cow.Or how to paint like Michelangelo. And the et cetera is as long as human culture itself.

Fortunately, what you believe doesn't constrain the creative potential of my experience.

[Abacab]

Belinda wrote

I dont believe that you have reinvented the wheel.Or the way to bake bread. Or how to tame and milk a cow.Or how to paint like Michelangelo. And the et cetera is as long as human culture itself.

I agree that Meleagar is nothing other than what is commonly know as eccentric, his bohemian idealism of creating his own world works only in his insular cut off from reality way. Material reality will always have the last say on it. There is nothing new under the sun here, authors write books this way, poets escape this way. The inner world is filled with our imaginations. Realist`s know that is what it is, others disconnected aspire to sell their ideals as a working fact, somehow conflating that their assuring us to take their word for it is all we require to believe them. Would you take your neighbours word for it that they saw flying winged pink elephants over your house last night? Meleagar is asking for naivety I don`t possess.

[Meleagar]

I agree that Meleagar is nothing other than what is commonly know as eccentric, his bohemian idealism of creating his own world works only in his insular cut off from reality way. Material reality will always have the last say on it. There is nothing new under the sun here, authors write books this way, poets escape this way. The inner world is filled with our imaginations. Realist`s know that is what it is, others disconnected aspire to sell their ideals as a working fact, somehow conflating that their assuring us to take their word for it is all we require to believe them. Would you take your neighbours word for it that they saw flying winged pink elephants over your house last night? Meleagar is asking for naivety I don`t possess.

Assertions, negative personal characterizations, and dismissals of the perspectives of others are not arguments, nor do they change the fact that materialism has been disproven by physics, nor do they change the facts of my experience.

[Jester Gren]

"Just because I begin with different premises doesn't mean my system of thought isn't logical"

I wholy agree, except any premise must be taken at face value, there is no logical warrant behind it, other than its practicality.

[Meleagar]

"Just because I begin with different premises doesn't mean my system of thought isn't logical"

I wholy agree, except any premise must be taken at face value, there is no logical warrant behind it, other than its practicality.

I agree. If the premise doesn't lead to practical conclusions, it is irrelevant; my premises have apparently led to very practical - and enjoyable - conclusions.

[Abacab]

and dismissals of the perspectives of others are not arguments,

I wasn`t arguing, it is my observation of your bald assertion. Your dismissal of realism and your negativity toward my perspective is noted.

Jester Gren wrote

any premise must be taken at face value

That was the naivety I was pointing to, [of which I don`t possess] There was a book circulating called The Secret and another based on a breakdown a woman had and then say`s she saw God. They are all claiming if you want to be free you believe whatever untruths they instruct you in to attain that Golden Bough, all fairytales for the gullibly inclined.

Meleagar wrote

The truth doesn't set you free, IMO, it chains you to it as long as you believe it to be true.

That say`s it all , and you claim to be an existentialist, you have never experienced anything to be a true experience or a truth. I find the truth sets me freer than lies that can only become tangled and imprison.

Meleagar wrote

I agree. If the premise doesn't lead to practical conclusions, it is irrelevant; my premises have apparently led to very practical - and enjoyable - conclusions.

Apparently, but we can only take your word for it, and as the truth doesn`t matter, then its circular logic, which isn`t logic.

[Meleagar]

That say`s it all , and you claim to be an existentialist,

I never claimed to be an existentialist. Perhaps you mistook "experientialist" for "existentialist".

I find the truth sets me freer than lies that can only become tangled and imprison.

If your argument depends on implying that others are lying, it's not much of an argument.

Apparently, but we can only take your word for it,

That's all any of us here have when it comes to personal stories and info.

It's interesting that you are apparently so invested in how you see reality that if someone claims to have an experience sufficiently different from your own, you're willing to insinuate that they are crazy or lying.

Is your belief in your particular version of reality that entrenched?

and as the truth doesn`t matter, then its circular logic, which isn`t logic.

Many tautlogical statements are entirely valid logic.

While truth might not matter to you, it matters a great deal to me.

[James S Saint]

While truth might not matter to you, it matters a great deal to me.

You have yet to convince anyone of that.

[Jester Gren]

any premise must be taken at face value


That was the naivety I was pointing to, [of which I don`t possess] There was a book circulating called The Secret and another based on a breakdown a woman had and then say`s she saw God. They are all claiming if you want to be free you believe whatever untruths they instruct you in to attain that Golden Bough, all fairytales for the gullibly inclined.

How can you claim not to be naive? Surely that is a sign of naivety.

[Abacab]

Meleagar you placing my quotes out of context, I was responding to your assertion about my life and happiness.

You wrote

Quote:
The truth doesn't set YOU free, IMO, it chains YOU to it as long as you believe it to be true.

I have a great life that doesn`t depend on anyones lies and I find the truth free`s me far more. Had you said YOU think the truth doesn`t set people free, I would have said I think it does, but you didn`t, you claimed me and all us are in chains by using the word YOU , you are aware that you are talking to us here.. yes no?

It's interesting that you are apparently so invested in how you see reality that if someone claims to have an experience sufficiently different from your own, you're willing to insinuate that they are crazy or lying.

Kettle and pots

Jester Gren wrote

How can you claim not to be naive? Surely that is a sign of naivety

How can you not read the words I wrote? I said it takes a naivety and gulliblity I don`t possess, [not that I am never naive] and its great Jester if you could use the context of the entire comment I made not just one line out of context.

[Jester Gren]

I have a great life that doesn`t depend on anyones lies and I find the truth free`s me far more. Had you said YOU think the truth doesn`t set people free, I would have said I think it does, but you didn`t, you claimed me and all us are in chains by using the word YOU , you are aware that you are talking to us here.. yes no?[/quote]

A chain is not necessarily a bad thing, it is what keeps us on this Earth, able to understand each other's arguments, we must understand that a chain is useful if only connected to something.

[Abacab]

#132 Jester read in context before saying about chains pl
please. My response was to the following quote by Meleagar.

The truth doesn't set you free, IMO, it chains you to it as long as you believe it to be true.

Its nothing but bald assertion, there is no debate to be wrangled from one like Meleagar who makes bald claims with no debate when challenged by differing perspectives. I make no apoligies for being a realist.

[Jester Gren]

What in "the truth" sets you free then? It seems you are associating lies with chains and truth with freedom, but "lies" seem more to be unwarranted positions which you are not differentiating from your own. If these un-warrants are simply chaining one to reality, then what exactly is truth freeing one from?

[Abacab]

Jester I don`t know what thread you are reading but please don`t associate me with linking lies for chains, when anyone can read Meleagar asserted the truth chains people. Only the untruth sets him free. I have quoted every comment I responded to, you find the quotes where I asserted anything about chains.