Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[tommarcus]

Greta, I would like to take your "Spirits of the Gut" analogy in a different direction. We desire to eat our fatty food and sweets because they make us feel good. They are definitely a source of pleasure. So following the Epicurean philosophy of not worrying about anything , relax and do what you want, it should be just fine to do what we want.

The problem is, that this philosophy is not consistent with how our bodies were made and is contrary to their purpose. So short term pleasure will be followed by obesity, diabetes, cancer and other diseases and extreme pain. This problem in our three dimensional existence is the same in our total existence in all of our dimensions. We may feel pleasure even happiness in our actions and thoughts in the short term. But if they contradict our total purpose, then eventually our total existence will succumb to pain and suffering. Or we may just find tgat happiness is no obtained without even knowing why. Millions don'tfeel right or satisfied. Something is bothering them.

Not being happy especially when one has all of the material benefits that one could want is nothing short of hell on earth. For many, suicide or drugs become a bad solution. But this is a consequence of acting contrary to our existence. Heaven is existing in accordance to the purpose which we were made. Heaven is a state of existence, not a place. Heaven now is different than Heaven after death because we will have changed after death. Hence the search for our purpose and the understanding of our creation is critical to our happiness or heaven.

[Sy Borg]

Tom, the issue you raise stems from the fact that human progress is much more rapid than our evolution. We are still evolved to stuff our faces rotten when we encounter yummy energy foods because these things were relatively scarce treats in the wild. Certainly the delicious sweet things in life were not available at your local supermarket.

Same with dogs. Why do they scoff large meals in seconds? Why not take their time? They too have evolved compulsions. Our compulsions are more controlled of course, which is basically the point of being human, but our control is far from consistent or universal.

We humans are not evolved to live in sterile little stone boxes atop many other boxes in structures of concrete, plastic and steel that reach to the sky. We humans are evolved to mess around in the wild, gather and killing things, making tools and cookery items. This creates internal conflict.

In a sense, there is no ideal place for us people living in the middle - conditioned to be civilised but evolved to a simpler lifestyle. It's never easy living in transitional times just as it's not easy working in a restructuring organisation. Many are insecure, with morale and trust at a low ebb, and so forth. This is not a time for ideals, but survival.

Given the extraordinary rate of change, that we humans manage to be as happy as we are seems an impressive feat of adaptability.

[Darshan]

Earthellism teaches us that God resides in Heaven and God defines Heaven in that the location of Heaven is the location of God. Hell is not the location of God and by definition Hell is the absence of God. One way to view this concept is to understand that Earth is travelling at over 1 million miles/hour through space. Our solar system is a large space complex that travels in our Galaxy and our Galaxy travels at another 1 million miles/hour through the Universe. Earth in many ways is a spaceship disguised as a planet with the surface of earth (earthell) the location of Hell. Heaven is located in the space between the Earth and our Moon and God is in the pilot seat flying our solar system throughout our Galaxy and Universe. We are not stardust but actual space travelers on our way to meet up with the Andromeda galaxy.

[Sy Borg]

For those who love science, Heaven is a balance of order and chaos while Hell is an imbalance between those two most fundamental dynamics of reality. These are, at least to some extent, subjective. Too much order brings stagnancy and too much chaos brings dissolution.

[Spyrith]

For those who love science, Heaven is a balance of order and chaos while Hell is an imbalance between those two most fundamental dynamics of reality. These are, at least to some extent, subjective. Too much order brings stagnancy and too much chaos brings dissolution.

If science is introduced in the equation, why should Heaven and Hell be separate? Perhaps Heaven and Hell are one and the same, except that one transforms into the other.

As we know, the entropy in the Universe is ever increasing - at some point entropy will increase to such an extent that no new stars are formed and life cannot be possible anymore. Thus, maybe Heaven and Hell are not separate "locations" but rather "separate" times. Perhaps now we live in the Heaven phase of the Universe, and Hell is what awaits us regardless of what choices we make and how good and faithful we are.

[Steve3007]

For those who love science, Heaven is a balance of order and chaos while Hell is an imbalance between those two most fundamental dynamics of reality. These are, at least to some extent, subjective. Too much order brings stagnancy and too much chaos brings dissolution.

Yes indeed.

As I'm sure we've probably discussed before, this stark contrast between the apparent order and mathematical purity and simplicity of "the heavens" and the chaotic, complex, scary, blood-soaked world of the surface of the Earth, must have struck our ancestors since long before the idea was recorded by the ancient Greeks. It must go back to the first time a human being laid back on the ground in the evening after the campfire had died down and stared up at the stars, and then did the same thing the next night, and the next night, noticing the subtle differences in position of a very small number of those "stars" compared to the others.

That human talent for pattern recognition, and noticing a difference between two patterns, plays a massive part there, as well as allowing us to conjure up stories of gods and other strange creatures just from the patterns in half a dozen dots, as entertainment in the age before binge-watching Netflix series took over.

The idea that above is cool, serene and ordered, with planets and stars making their slow, dispassionate, predictable way across the sky, and below is a dark, boiling cauldron of chaotic, passionate, dangerous activity seems have informed almost every aspect of human thought, from the stories of the world's religions to the archetypes of Mr Spock versus Doctor "Bones" McCoy.

[Sy Borg]

Spyrith

If this is Heaven, we live in a tough universe! Heat is a major limiter of computational power so, theoretically, the cooler universe of the future should be able to support more advanced life (somewhere, if not here). It's clear that humanity, for all its advances, has plenty of room for improvement.

Unlike Christianity, the Hindus saw their entropic deity, Shiva, as both "the destroyer" and "the renewer", operating in concert with Brahma the creator and Vishnu the preserver. As you say, part of the same thing.

Yes, Heaven and Hell are basically emotional states, as you say, time-based. We've all probably spent time in each of those extreme states while most usually being in more middling states.

[Sy Borg]

The idea that above is cool, serene and ordered, with planets and stars making their slow, dispassionate, predictable way across the sky, and below is a dark, boiling cauldron of chaotic, passionate, dangerous activity seems have informed almost every aspect of human thought, from the stories of the world's religions to the archetypes of Mr Spock versus Doctor "Bones" McCoy.

Little did the ancients realise that space can kill you in numerous inventive ways - from gravity, lack of gravity, gases, lack of gases, heat, cold, radiation, magnetism, collisions, explosions ...

Then again, distance has a funny way of diluting events to the point where we can romanticise about them. We are enchanted by birdsong as they shout abuse at each other. Clouds are beautiful - until you are inside on and falling towards Earth at 9.8 m/s/s. Ditto large wildlife which, like paintings, tend to be best appreciated at a distance.

[Steve3007]

Little did the ancients realise that space can kill you in numerous inventive ways - from gravity, lack of gravity, gases, lack of gases, heat, cold, radiation, magnetism, collisions, explosions ...

Then again, distance has a funny way of diluting events to the point where we can romanticise about them. We are enchanted by birdsong as they shout abuse at each other. Clouds are beautiful - until you are inside on and falling towards Earth at 9.8 m/s/s. Ditto large wildlife which, like paintings, tend to be best appreciated at a distance.

Yes. Distance in both time and space can sanitize and/or romanticize can't it? The birdsong one is particularly funny.

[Sy Borg]

Little did the ancients realise that space can kill you in numerous inventive ways - from gravity, lack of gravity, gases, lack of gases, heat, cold, radiation, magnetism, collisions, explosions ...

Then again, distance has a funny way of diluting events to the point where we can romanticise about them. We are enchanted by birdsong as they shout abuse at each other. Clouds are beautiful - until you are inside on and falling towards Earth at 9.8 m/s/s. Ditto large wildlife which, like paintings, tend to be best appreciated at a distance.

Yes. Distance in both time and space can sanitize and/or romanticize can't it? The birdsong one is particularly funny.

The "chirps" of bird ancestors sixty million years ago would have seemed less relaxing to us.

I remember standing on a tropic island, enchanted by the sunset. Then it struck me that every single thing that I was internally rhapsodising over would soon kill me - the setting Sun, the sky and sea. Another example - the naming of the planet Venus before we found out what it was like.

[creation]

For those who love science, Heaven is a balance of order and chaos while Hell is an imbalance between those two most fundamental dynamics of reality. These are, at least to some extent, subjective. Too much order brings stagnancy and too much chaos brings dissolution.

Yes indeed.

As I'm sure we've probably discussed before, this stark contrast between the apparent order and mathematical purity and simplicity of "the heavens" and the chaotic, complex, scary, blood-soaked world of the surface of the Earth, must have struck our ancestors since long before the idea was recorded by the ancient Greeks. It must go back to the first time a human being laid back on the ground in the evening after the campfire had died down and stared up at the stars, and then did the same thing the next night, and the next night, noticing the subtle differences in position of a very small number of those "stars" compared to the others.

That human talent for pattern recognition, and noticing a difference between two patterns, plays a massive part there, as well as allowing us to conjure up stories of gods and other strange creatures just from the patterns in half a dozen dots, as entertainment in the age before binge-watching Netflix series took over.

The idea that above is cool, serene and ordered, with planets and stars making their slow, dispassionate, predictable way across the sky, and below is a dark, boiling cauldron of chaotic, passionate, dangerous activity seems have informed almost every aspect of human thought, from the stories of the world's religions to the archetypes of Mr Spock versus Doctor "Bones" McCoy.

Why are those who "love" science not able to see and understand things past the material world?

The written ideas about the words 'above' and 'below' have a very specific purpose that exist in thought first, which then transpire into the creation of the "world" in which people want to live in, that is; either a heaven or a hell.

The words 'heaven' and 'hell' are not in relation to the earthly world nor the Universal world that each person is born into and onto, but in relation to the 'world' that people create for themselves. Obviously, this "world" that we are living in now, when this is written, that is; this war-torn, greedy, and polluted "world" we live in now is the one that we created for ourselves. This "world", and way of life, although, at times, has moments of being heaven like is generally very hell like.

The earth, and the Universe, is just the way they are, but the way human beings live creates the "world" that they live in, which can either be a heaven or a hell like "world".

The word 'above' just refers to a more good or more right way of thinking, and, the word 'below' just refers to a less good or less right way of thinking. Obviously, the former way of thinking leads to living a better or higher way of life, and, conversely the latter way of thinking takes us down to a worse way of living. 'Heaven' obviously being above. 'Hell' obviously being below.

Really some people just need to change their way of thinking to see and understand what is essentially just plain obvious.

This is like travelling at near the speed of light. Clocks nor physical processes do not slow down the faster they travel. It is that just from the observers point of view travelling at those speeds things just 'appear' to slow down. It really is just this simple, easy, AND obvious. As I continually say; Absolutely every thing is relative to the observer.

When people have a "love" of some particular thing, then that are not Truly OPEN, and therefore they are not in the position to have and thus gain a true and full perspective of things.

[creation]

@Spyrith

If this is Heaven, we live in a tough universe!

If being alive, conscious, and aware is not heaven to you, then so be it. You will only have this one chance to experience 'it'.

Heat is a major limiter of computational power so, theoretically, the cooler universe of the future should be able to support more advanced life (somewhere, if not here). It's clear that humanity, for all its advances, has plenty of room for improvement.

Unlike Christianity, the Hindus saw their entropic deity, Shiva, as both "the destroyer" and "the renewer", operating in concert with Brahma the creator and Vishnu the preserver. As you say, part of the same thing.

Human beings say all sorts of things, but this does not actually mean nor prove any thing.

Yes, Heaven and Hell are basically emotional states, as you say, time-based. We've all probably spent time in each of those extreme states while most usually being in more middling states.

[creation]

The idea that above is cool, serene and ordered, with planets and stars making their slow, dispassionate, predictable way across the sky, and below is a dark, boiling cauldron of chaotic, passionate, dangerous activity seems have informed almost every aspect of human thought, from the stories of the world's religions to the archetypes of Mr Spock versus Doctor "Bones" McCoy.

Little did the ancients realise that space can kill you in numerous inventive ways - from gravity, lack of gravity, gases, lack of gases, heat, cold, radiation, magnetism, collisions, explosions ...

And, most people do not even realize, or they take it for granted, that they are only existing because of these very things, themselves.

If these things that can "kill" were not exactly how they are, then each and every person would not have come to exist, in the beginning.

Then again, distance has a funny way of diluting events to the point where we can romanticise about them. We are enchanted by birdsong as they shout abuse at each other. Clouds are beautiful - until you are inside on and falling towards Earth at 9.8 m/s/s. Ditto large wildlife which, like paintings, tend to be best appreciated at a distance.

Some people do not to look at and see things from only one perspective.

[creation]

Little did the ancients realise that space can kill you in numerous inventive ways - from gravity, lack of gravity, gases, lack of gases, heat, cold, radiation, magnetism, collisions, explosions ...

Then again, distance has a funny way of diluting events to the point where we can romanticise about them. We are enchanted by birdsong as they shout abuse at each other. Clouds are beautiful - until you are inside on and falling towards Earth at 9.8 m/s/s. Ditto large wildlife which, like paintings, tend to be best appreciated at a distance.

Yes. Distance in both time and space can sanitize and/or romanticize can't it? The birdsong one is particularly funny.

Why is that funny?

Because it is true, or because you have absolutely NO idea at all if it is true or not?

[creation]

Yes. Distance in both time and space can sanitize and/or romanticize can't it? The birdsong one is particularly funny.

The "chirps" of bird ancestors sixty million years ago would have seemed less relaxing to us.

Some people can see things, which are not even there as well. So called "birdsong" just may not be abuse at each other at all. But, some will only see hatred, abuse and/or negativity, even when it is not there.

I remember standing on a tropic island, enchanted by the sunset. Then it struck me that every single thing that I was internally rhapsodising over would soon kill me - the setting Sun, the sky and sea.

Were you previously under some sort of illusion that the 'you' would not be so called "killed" soon anyway?

Surely you were not under some sort of illusion that 'you' would live forever, were you?

Also, while you "suddenly" came to that realization, did you also "suddenly" realize that it was actually because of those exact same things that you were 'here' able to be enchanted and able to rhapsodize over such things?

Or, did you only look at that from the one perspective?

Another example - the naming of the planet Venus before we found out what it was like.