Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Spectrum]

The Buddha's 4NT-8FP is a very sophisticated Life Problem Solving Technique.
By going through the process systematically and deligently, one would be able to resolve any mental problems (btw not physical or those that need serious psychiatric treatments) and live one life optimally.

The four noble truths (4NT) can be summarized as follows:
1.The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress)
2.The truth of the origin of dukkha
3.The truth of the cessation of dukkha
4.The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha -8FP*

*8FP = Noble Eightfold Paths

The Basic Problem Solving Technique
1. Defining the problem.
2. Generating alternatives.
3. Evaluating and selecting alternatives.
4. Implementing solutions.
5.Feedback and Control

The 4NT-8FP when transposed as a conventional problem solving technique is as follows;

1. Defining the problem.
NT1 -The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, stress)
NT2 -The truth of the origin of dukkha -12 Nidanas

2. Generating alternatives.
NT3 -The truth of the cessation of dukkha -Reverse 12 Nidanas

3. Evaluating and selecting alternatives.
NT4 -The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha -8FP

4. Implementing solutions.
8FP -Right View, Intention, Speech, Action, Livelihood, Effort, Concentration, Mindfulness

F5. Feedback and Control
Right View - Is the problem resolved?
Yes, -seek improvement
No, -Check 1 and repeat process

The above is just a model.
Plus point is, it is an objective model and it provide a framework as a guide for anyone to work on.
To put into actual effective practice, it will entail complex, many processes and detail work. The details can be found within the various sutras from the various Buddhist schools. What is needed is to compile the various sets of practices from different schools into one common practice.

The above model works best when the Buddha story is deemed as a myth, where one's effort is focus on the model and the Buddha's core principles.
IMO, the above model with its complex details will also facilitate the weaning off the religious trimmings of Buddhism by the next 100-200 years or ASAP.

Views?

[Spiral Out]

If you must effect this weaning process with people, who are inherently lazy, then you must make it simple. You must have a simple replacement for that which you are trying to replace. This seems even more complicated and counter-intuitive.

[HANDSON]

I like your ideas, spectrum, and believe your energies are propelled toward genuinely heuristic ends. Offering your model as a psychological guide has potential, imo, until the faithful view it as a replacement for Jesus/Allah. Fundamentalism is blind and views as blasphemy anything outside the dictates of their beloved dogmas.

[Spectrum]

I like your ideas, spectrum, and believe your energies are propelled toward genuinely heuristic ends. Offering your model as a psychological guide has potential, imo, until the faithful view it as a replacement for Jesus/Allah. Fundamentalism is blind and views as blasphemy anything outside the dictates of their beloved dogmas.

Thanks. As mentioned elsewhere, my motivation to propose the above is due my adoption of one the Bodhisattva Vows, i.e. to have empathy and compassion for all sentient beings and contribute positively in anyway towards humanity's well being optimally.
We can realize the potentials if we are systematic, diligent and persistent, and we will be able to see results within the next 100 -200 years and hopefully ASAP.

[Mahendrads]

Spectrum wrote The above model works best when the Buddha story is deemed as a myth, where one's effort is focus on the model and the Buddha's core principles. IMO, the above model with its complex details will also facilitate the weaning off the religious trimmings of Buddhism by the next 100-200 years or ASAP.

I really admire your understanding of 4NT +8FP in Buddhist teachings Spectrum should know that Buddhist texts always talk about Buddha, Dharma (Teachings) and Sangaha( Buddha's decuples who continue to carry the teachings) I fully agree with Spectrum that Buddhism as a religion has added many extra practices and rituals which Buddha never preached. Most of the Buddhists all over the world are more in to these unwanted practices and rituals rather than following the real teachings. But as Spectrum suggested if we trim down Buddhism and discard Buddha and Sangha and allow only Dhamma ( Buddha's teachings), it will be doubtful whether these teachings will remain in this world for a long time. It is Buddha’s disciples who safeguarded the Buddhist teachings for centuries with greatest obstacles from enemies and conquering empires who wanted to spread their own religion throughout Asia. We should be grateful to Sangha, Buddha disciples for their great efforts in preserving this wonderful teachings in its original form. Further Dhamma on the original form would appeal only to intellectuals. Majority of people will not be able to fully apprehend why our existence is a suffering and also the fact that there is no real person in us. Majority of the people wants Buddhism only as a religion to spend a normal life as a good citizen and they do want to continue to live and enjoy pleasure.. In that sense Buddhism as a religion has helped Asian people to be more civilized and respectful of each other and less aggressive compared to people from other parts of the world. At least they practiced five precepts and Right Speech, Right Action and Right livelihood in Noble 8 fold path. They believed in Karma and if we you behave badly there is a possibility of getting born again in a miserable life. If you do good things you would be reborn with lot of wealth and happiness. At least for this purpose majority of people tried to live a better live without harming others. They admired and respected Buddhist priests and they performed rituals whenever people need it. It was a harmonious existence with Buddhist teachings practiced in a milder way by ordinary people. However with the influx of western values and commercialization that this pattern has changed and incidents we observe in Burma, Tibet and Sri Lanka shows that Buddhism as a religion has taken a more aggressive and violent form. Rituals and traditions associated with Buddhism will continue to appeal to people who have low rating in Spectrum scale of 1-10. According to Buddha, A Wise man would not be bothered about what others do but he would discover the best way to improve his wisdom and understanding of life. He would concentrate more on Right efforts, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration of Noble 8 fold path to solve the life problem.

[Spectrum]

Spectrum wrote The above model works best when the Buddha story is deemed as a myth, where one's effort is focus on the model and the Buddha's core principles. IMO, the above model with its complex details will also facilitate the weaning off the religious trimmings of Buddhism by the next 100-200 years or ASAP.

I really admire your understanding of 4NT +8FP in Buddhist teachings Spectrum should know that Buddhist texts always talk about Buddha, Dharma (Teachings) and Sangaha( Buddha's decuples who continue to carry the teachings) I fully agree with Spectrum that Buddhism as a religion has added many extra practices and rituals which Buddha never preached. Most of the Buddhists all over the world are more in to these unwanted practices and rituals rather than following the real teachings.

But as Spectrum suggested if we trim down Buddhism and discard Buddha and Sangha and allow only Dhamma ( Buddha's teachings), it will be doubtful whether these teachings will remain in this world for a long time.
It is Buddha’s disciples who safeguarded the Buddhist teachings for centuries with greatest obstacles from enemies and conquering empires who wanted to spread their own religion throughout Asia.
We should be grateful to Sangha, Buddha disciples for their great efforts in preserving this wonderful teachings in its original form. Further Dhamma on the original form would appeal only to intellectuals.

Majority of people will not be able to fully apprehend why our existence is a suffering and also the fact that there is no real person in us.
Majority of the people wants Buddhism only as a religion to spend a normal life as a good citizen and they do want to continue to live and enjoy pleasure..

In that sense Buddhism as a religion has helped Asian people to be more civilized and respectful of each other and less aggressive compared to people from other parts of the world.
At least they practiced five precepts and Right Speech, Right Action and Right livelihood in Noble 8 fold path. They believed in Karma and if we you behave badly there is a possibility of getting born again in a miserable life. If you do good things you would be reborn with lot of wealth and happiness.
At least for this purpose majority of people tried to live a better live without harming others. They admired and respected Buddhist priests and they performed rituals whenever people need it. It was a harmonious existence with Buddhist teachings practiced in a milder way by ordinary people.

However with the influx of western values and commercialization that this pattern has changed and incidents we observe in Burma, Tibet and Sri Lanka shows that Buddhism as a religion has taken a more aggressive and violent form.

Rituals and traditions associated with Buddhism will continue to appeal to people who have low rating in Spectrum scale of 1-10.

According to Buddha, A Wise man would not be bothered about what others do but he would discover the best way to improve his wisdom and understanding of life. He would concentrate more on Right efforts, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration of Noble 8 fold path to solve the life problem.

I like your presentation and welcome your disagreement to some of my points. (I have broken the above paras for an easier read.)

My most critical point to be considered is, "...by the next 100-200 years or ASAP."

One point.. even at present, we carry everything that is to know about Buddhism, all suttras that has ever been written and all commentaries of Buddhism in a smartphone (and they are getting cheaper and cheaper), if not, in tablet or pen-drive.
In the future, there will still be the Triple Gem, i.e. Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. While the essence of the Buddha and Dhamma will be the same, the Sangha (higher degree of anicca) will take different forms to align with the changing environments.
There will still be "monks", i.e. those who are full time into research and sustaining the Dhamma, but their mental set-up inclinations, attitudes will be different from the monks of the old, i.e. 2000+ years traditions. There will still be organizations and institutions focussing on the core of Buddhism, but there will be less emphasis on temples, statutes, praying with josssticks, asking for favors from images, amulets, and all the religious peripherals and accessories.

I foresee in with 100 -200 years time, there will be UNSO (United Nation Spiritual Organization) with its various branches in every nation, and the Dhamma will be one that reconcile and consolidate all the current world's Dhammas/Dharmas into one generic Dhamma/Dharma. IMO, Buddhism would contribute significantly to this generic Dhamma. This generic Dhamma will still have various forms to suit local and other conditions but by unanimous consensus, it will not revert to the old religious format.

If we take note of the current trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge [assuming we have taken care of the negative aspects], imo, Buddhism being a dynamic religion will change with time, knowledge, wisdom, science, and technology and contribute positively to humanity.

Note the 14th Dalai Lama's wisdom,
nytimes.com/2005/11/12/opinion/12dalai. ... wanted=all

If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change.
In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality. By learning from science about aspects of reality where its understanding may be more advanced, I believe that Buddhism enriches its own worldview.

I don't think he meant only Science, but would definitely extend that to any justified truths that are in alignment with the Dhamma.

In other perspectives of humanity, the various human traits (wisdom, intelligence, empathy, spiritual quotient, etc.) of the average human would have increased significantly by the next 50 to 100 to 200 years' time.

[Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD]

If you must effect this weaning process with people, who are inherently lazy, then you must make it simple. You must have a simple replacement for that which you are trying to replace. This seems even more complicated and counter-intuitive.

Hello,

All are kindly invited to contribute to this new topic about Buddhism :

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19194