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[Stormeyy]

I've discovered this myth which exists in the bible somewhere as long as there exists other passages too that are called among the name of lilth in bible. I see the bible talk bout lilth that lilth is eve first hand maiden to adam. Eve is second made for adam and lilth come first so adam is first so lilth and adam and eve myth. The myth talk bout adam and lilth eve and SADS ASDS and both of these myths have equal validity in that they SADS and ASDS (adult and sudden) death syndroms.

This pertians to a great myth of legend which I feel is true about adam and eve.

I wondered if any of you guys thought about this myth before.

[Marabod]

Lilith in the bible [methinks] is a name of the barn owl or some other night bird. Not Adam's spouse.

This story is not from the Bible, it is a medieval urban legend, based on the fact that the Bible tells the story of creation of Adam two times. First time in Genesis it says sorta "created a Man, male and female created them" and second time it tells how Eve was made out of Adam's rib. As a result the literalists read it as two wives, one created TOGETHER with Adam, and one later from the rib. They were even saying that Lilith from Adam gave birth to several imps or devils. My impression is that the early writer, who was collecting oral myths, put two independent versions of the same story together, as they both looked equally sacred for him. We are talking about myths and legends of Stone Age, first part of Genesis is very-very old. You can find some details in Leo Taxille's "Funny Bible" despite it is a humorous book.

[Stormeyy]

Lilith in the bible [methinks] is a name of the barn owl or some other night bird. Not Adam's spouse.

This story is not from the Bible, it is a medieval urban legend, based on the fact that the Bible tells the story of creation of Adam two times. First time in Genesis it says sorta "created a Man, male and female created them" and second time it tells how Eve was made out of Adam's rib. As a result the literalists read it as two wives, one created TOGETHER with Adam, and one later from the rib. They were even saying that Lilith from Adam gave birth to several imps or devils. My impression is that the early writer, who was collecting oral myths, put two independent versions of the same story together, as they both looked equally sacred for him. We are talking about myths and legends of Stone Age, first part of Genesis is very-very old. You can find some details in Leo Taxille's "Funny Bible" despite it is a humorous book.

Going to simply pose a question, favoriate the link, and post depending on answers.

[Marabod]

Lilith in the bible [methinks] is a name of the barn owl or some other night bird. Not Adam's spouse.

This story is not from the Bible, it is a medieval urban legend, based on the fact that the Bible tells the story of creation of Adam two times. First time in Genesis it says sorta "created a Man, male and female created them" and second time it tells how Eve was made out of Adam's rib. As a result the literalists read it as two wives, one created TOGETHER with Adam, and one later from the rib. They were even saying that Lilith from Adam gave birth to several imps or devils. My impression is that the early writer, who was collecting oral myths, put two independent versions of the same story together, as they both looked equally sacred for him. We are talking about myths and legends of Stone Age, first part of Genesis is very-very old. You can find some details in Leo Taxille's "Funny Bible" despite it is a humorous book.

Going to simply pose a question, favoriate the link, and post depending on answers.

We probably belong to different social groups or even generations. I do not use web for educational purposes, but mostly for business, reference information and communications. My educational sources are books and tertiary educational institutions, thus I name for you a book where you can read what I have posted. Take it or leave it, I guess there is little sense for me to respond to your posts then, if you rely exclusively on the web links in everything. Do you know how to use Google search? I can provide a link to it if you haven't got it. Also check Wikipedia.

[Stormeyy]

Going to simply pose a question, favoriate the link, and post depending on answers.

We probably belong to different social groups or even generations. I do not use web for educational purposes, but mostly for business, reference information and communications. My educational sources are books and tertiary educational institutions, thus I name for you a book where you can read what I have posted. Take it or leave it, I guess there is little sense for me to respond to your posts then, if you rely exclusively on the web links in everything. Do you know how to use Google search? I can provide a link to it if you haven't got it. Also check Wikipedia.

To thine grace marasbody:

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/eve-women/7evelilith.html


You may find this link interesting!

[Marabod]

It is indeed interesting, as I saw no details like that before - but still goes with what I knew before, that it is a medieval legend, and a non-biblical expansion of mythology. Yes, screech owl, not a barn-owl, I remember now. Just a lore.

[Stormeyy]

It is indeed interesting, as I saw no details like that before - but still goes with what I knew before, that it is a medieval legend, and a non-biblical expansion of mythology. Yes, screech owl, not a barn-owl, I remember now. Just a lore.

Well if you think about it carefully enough it isn't simply a lore as much as it is reminding us all the imperative to consider in further depth the meaning of those "myths in the bible which we so often take for granted."

Yet I mention this thread out of haste- primarially yet not decidedly.

My opinion at the present is only this:

The myth is biblical. The story of adam and eve precedes this in the written version of the bible yet in the lore it precedes the "bible" or the myth of...

Anyway, I found it very interesting. And I hope you do as well! There's quite a bit of further information on that webpage and most of it would inspire one into further research. So I decided to post and question the myth to see and to decided personally as in my own persons deciding what others had thought of the myth as well. Albeit it is not with great interest to be honest that I admit to this fact, yet it is suggested that it is or rather was my intention.

[Belinda]

As far as what Marabod is saying about the provenance of the myth of Lilith this is for me mostly unnecesary diversion. What interests me about the provenance as desribed by Marabod is the fact of the existence of the myth and such persistence as it has. It seems to me that the inception and persistence of the myth of Lilith and the myth of Eve as well,is due to masculine need to keep the feminine in subjection.
Apart from the disparagement of the feminine, the myth of the Expulsion from Eden has something relevant for me.

[Marabod]

As far as what Marabod is saying about the provenance of the myth of Lilith this is for me mostly unnecesary diversion. What interests me about the provenance as desribed by Marabod is the fact of the existence of the myth and such persistence as it has. It seems to me that the inception and persistence of the myth of Lilith and the myth of Eve as well,is due to masculine need to keep the feminine in subjection.
Apart from the disparagement of the feminine, the myth of the Expulsion from Eden has something relevant for me.

Belinda, the known historical forms of the relationships between a man and a woman show that it has little to do with dominance issues, and there is no masculine need to subdue a female. It is all much more simple and relates to such prose as feeding the family, income earning and the laws of inheritance.

The best research on this topic is Friedrich Engels' The Origins of Family, Private Property and State. When the hunting tools were primitive, the food was mostly delivered by the females, doing foraging, while a male was only making a feast once a month by killing some small animal. Therefore, the significance of a female was very high, as she was a main food supplier. But when the hunting techniques were developed, the yield of the hunting grew so much, that the meat, supplied by the males outweighed the yield of a foraging woman, and her role changed.

The situation when a female was a main supplier was allowing the females to feed more than one male at once, to have multiple husbands. At such condition it is impossible to establish a father of the child, so the children were attributed to the mothers only - and the inheritance was taking place along the maternal line. This precipitated a political system called Matriarchate, the society was dominated by the females. The echo of this was the tribe of Amazons, which existed in Caucasis about 3000 years ago.

As soon as the man became the main supplier, he the first thing was trying to ensure, that after his death all his possessions would go to HIS child, not to the neighbour's one - so the women were practically enslaved and force-isolated from the other males. This was already a Patriarchate.

This has really little to do with domination issue, only pure pragmatism.

[Stormeyy]

As far as what Marabod is saying about the provenance of the myth of Lilith this is for me mostly unnecesary diversion. What interests me about the provenance as desribed by Marabod is the fact of the existence of the myth and such persistence as it has. It seems to me that the inception and persistence of the myth of Lilith and the myth of Eve as well,is due to masculine need to keep the feminine in subjection.
Apart from the disparagement of the feminine, the myth of the Expulsion from Eden has something relevant for me.

Eden is a god similar to the god Bahameut, but Bahameut is only similar to Eden in that he is said to come before, and lilth is said to preceede these so... I'm confused about the whole perdicament.

storm



edit: [more information]
http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=joap.025.0325a
see this link for more lilth information from a psychoanaliticial perspective.
(called lilth and the black moon)

Here's a brilliant historical exposition but it's remote from much needed clarification for any would be psychoanalist.
http://www.gnostic-scriptorium.com/vale ... liphot.asp

There's more.


storm

edit

Another one for you belinda:
http://www.gnostic-scriptorium.com/vale ... ekate1.asp
kisses

more false lore on lilth and a further tid bit,
http://jewishchristianlit.com/Topics/Li ... rview.html

here (this one is remarkably similar to the preistly woman)
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=469




MARABOD:

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

We are not discussing inherant impotent quality of the masculine form.

We are not discussing the issue of patrarchy or matraichy. We are discussing the orgin myths and those attributed to any general share of equality between the two equal genders.

I see no problem with this if you od leave the thread or you will be reported.

Please use proper refrences in your posts. Attribute proper spelling and proper form of which you intend to designate your arguement to. Do no bring further myth or history into this debate!

This is only about the myth of lilth adam and eve and the myth considered singularly is the whole purpose of this thread! Please cease in derailing it!

There are many you may keep in mind myths and other singular qualities which some people enjoy to discuss without criticism! This one in particular happens to be the myth I am refering to presently! If you feel as if you have been cheated or are now presently mistaken do not fret! For you may also be correct! (although according to the light considered in this thread you are mistaken).

If you would like to argue or complain pm a moderator! But any further posts [in this regard] will be sent directly to the admins!

[Marabod]

Stormy, you must be confused by your own topic! The link you posted first insists the split between Adam and Lilith was caused exactly by male dominance issues and refers to Qabbala. You can feel free to report anything though, if you find it inappropriate and not related to the topic.

Moreover, the fact that the myth is Jewish by origins also reflects the issue of dominance and struggle between Matriarchate and Patriarchate. Jewish culture is unique because it is highly conservative Patriarchal and malish, and the same time it includes the inheritance by female line, which was established because jacob (Israel) was a junior son of Abraham, so technically the legitimate successor was supposed to be not he but Ishmael, born from Hagar. This contradiction in Qabbala caused the myth of Lilith, which insists that a woman out of male dominance is a demon.

If you personally dislike this point of view, it does not make it irrelevant to the topic you posted!

[Belinda]

Marabod, I only meant that the dominance of men over women seems to me to be illustrated and legitimated by the myths of Lilith and Eve. I understand that woman is viewed historically as less than man in several ways. For instance in the Book of Ruth the newly widowed woman was part of the dead husband's tribe, and her duty was to go where her late husband's family resided, and later to bear children for her late husband's tribe. I know that in the west women were not enfranchised until much later than men.There seems to be a bias towards men habing considerably more power than women in the three Abrahamic religions.It is also said that Muhammad gave women more power than they had had under the old system of fractured tribes, but today it's obvious that among Muslim lower classes at least, the men are held to be superior to women.

[Algol]

Ok, I have my own take on the Lilith myth. From what I heard, Lilith was created before Adam, then after Adam was created, God told Lilith to submit to Adam's will. Lilith refused thinking herself Adam's equal if not better. Lilith was then banished from Eden. To replace Lilith, God created another woman from Adam's rib (Eve). So the basic idea is that Lilith was created in God's image, while Eve (woman today) are created from what God saw in man's desires.

As for Lilith being an owl in the Old Testament I'm not sure. Marabod, if you could point out where you read that I'd like to know. Lilith was a daemon from (I think) Babalonian or Chaldean mythology and was adopted by the Jewish religion. Don't quote me on any of this though. You'll probably be laughed at.

[Marabod]

Ok, I have my own take on the Lilith myth. From what I heard, Lilith was created before Adam, then after Adam was created, God told Lilith to submit to Adam's will. Lilith refused thinking herself Adam's equal if not better. Lilith was then banished from Eden. To replace Lilith, God created another woman from Adam's rib (Eve). So the basic idea is that Lilith was created in God's image, while Eve (woman today) are created from what God saw in man's desires.

As for Lilith being an owl in the Old Testament I'm not sure. Marabod, if you could point out where you read that I'd like to know. Lilith was a daemon from (I think) Babalonian or Chaldean mythology and was adopted by the Jewish religion. Don't quote me on any of this though. You'll probably be laughed at.

There is no name Lilith in the translated Bible, but I read it comes to Jewish name of a screech owl, which in the lore was associated with demon Lilith.

"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest." Isaiah 34:14

Also Genesis does no say any human was created before Adam, it says "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27.

[Belinda]

If Lilith is associated with owls, then is Lilith a form of Athena? Wisdom? Is the wisdom tradition in the OT sometimes decried. The wisdom book of Ecclesiates is too much of a good thing for the priesthood, perhaps?