Philosophy Discussion Forums

Gaza; questions that have not been asked by the media, or not enough.

after the attack on the 7th, why not ask the Palestinians; DO YOU AGREE WITH THE ATTACK?
and/or, DO YOU AGREE WITH HAMAS, ARE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ON THE SAME SIDE AS THEM, AND INDEED ARE INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM HAMAS?
If yes to any of these, then why are you feeling sorry for yourselves? If innocent then none of the above applies. I just want to know the answer to these questions! People can omit some aspects, as I speak too plainly, but if the questions are there then why on earth have they not been asked. I watch the news a lot, so if I did miss reporters asking Palestinians if they agree with the attack, they should ask it again and keep asking. The news are persistent with other questioning, so why not such fundamental ones?

Something for the Israelis [for balance]

is benjamin Netanyahu somewhere within the category ‘worst monsters in history?’. Not up there with Hitler, but in the wider perimeters of generally over excessive persons with too much power. I mean, watching modern military jets attach civillans!?

WHY DO WE SUPPORT THOSE WHO MURDER PEOPLE e.g. settlers attacking Palestinians in the west bank, and doing so seemingly since Israel’s inception as a sovereign state.





Just so you know; I am always only placing arguments before you, I don’t believe in belief except that of balance. In order to arrived at balanced argument, I have to put forwards even arguments I don’t like and possibly agree with people I don’t like. No ad-hominem required, I am not the arguments! They are just there and they exist.

_

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 18th, 2024, 6:28 am DO YOU AGREE WITH HAMAS, ARE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ON THE SAME SIDE AS THEM, AND INDEED ARE INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM HAMAS?

It is my understanding that Hamas are the legitimate, democratically-elected, government of Gaza.

So Hamas <-> Palestinians is the same as MAGA-Republicans <-> Americans.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 18th, 2024, 6:28 am why not ask the Palestinians; DO YOU AGREE WITH THE ATTACK?
_

I don't think it would be meaningful to ask Palestinians in Gaza that question.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 18th, 2024, 6:28 am DO YOU AGREE WITH HAMAS, ARE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ON THE SAME SIDE AS THEM, AND INDEED ARE INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM HAMAS?
_
[/quot]

Whether or not Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza is subjective. They may have won the election but, personally I don't have much faith in elections.
I don't think Israel has justification to commit crimes against humanity and they have committed many.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 18th, 2024, 6:28 am is benjamin Netanyahu somewhere within the category ‘worst monsters in history?

e]
I believe that Netanyahu is on the list of "worst monsters in history". But it's a long list. I put Kissinger higher on the list.
I think that the atrocities attributed to Bibi have had more exposure that others because of social media. I think Biden and Dems were shocked at the number and quickness that people turned against their complicity in the genocide. Never before has the public gotten to see the atrocities so up close and personal. The media of the Wealthy Class has always been able to moderate the messages. Exceptions like wikileaks saw swift actions by the government to shut that down. Now it looks like the government is going to try to moderate social media.

It is my understanding that Hamas are the legitimate, democratically-elected, government of Gaza.

So Hamas <-> Palestinians is the same as MAGA-Republicans <-> Americans.

Thanks pattern chaser, just need reporters to say that. At the moment there appears to be a separation declared, the news keeps saying innocent palestinians and that they are not hamas, - which isn’t true, in the main at least.

I don't think it would be meaningful to ask Palestinians in Gaza that question.

They complain as if they are the injured party? So it does need to be asked.
...and we need to know where we stand on the matter, if they are innocent and to what extent, or indeed are they complicit in the actions of hamas?

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 12:10 pm
Thanks pattern chaser, just need reporters to say that. At the moment there appears to be a separation declared, the news keeps saying innocent palestinians and that they are not hamas, - which isn’t true, in the main at least.

I read what Pattern Chaser said as: Palestinians are not Hamas as Americans are not MAGA. Just because Hamas was elected in Gaza doesn't mean all Palestinians there are Hamas. I think that Israel claiming that all Palestinians are Hamas including babies is an excuse to murder them all. Israel isn't hiding the fact that they want to kill them all.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 12:10 pm They complain as if they are the injured party? So it does need to be asked.
...and we need to know where we stand on the matter, if they are innocent and to what extent, or indeed are they complicit in the actions of Hamas?

But asking them will only result in them saying they are not Hamas. So what have you gained. There is no justification to murder all Gaza Palestinians.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 19th, 2024, 9:41 am It is my understanding that Hamas are the legitimate, democratically-elected, government of Gaza.

So Hamas <-> Palestinians is the same as Democrats <-> Americans.

[Edit: I changed my words to reflect that (I think) the Dems are currently in power; the elected government.]

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 12:10 pm Thanks pattern chaser, just need reporters to say that. At the moment there appears to be a separation declared, the news keeps saying innocent palestinians and that they are not hamas, - which isn’t true, in the main at least.

Mo_reese wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 4:37 pm I read what Pattern Chaser said as: Palestinians are not Hamas as Americans are not MAGA. Just because Hamas was elected in Gaza doesn't mean all Palestinians there are Hamas. I think that Israel claiming that all Palestinians are Hamas including babies is an excuse to murder them all. Israel isn't hiding the fact that they want to kill them all.

I did not make my intended meaning at all clear. Sorry. I'll try to add a bit more depth:

Our Western media, and the politicians/leaders they control, have branded Hamas a "terrorist" organisation. In other words, the government chosen and elected by the people of Gaza is a terrorist organisation. And from Israel's point of view, this may well be the case. When France was occupied in WW2, we referred to the French Resistance as heroes and freedom-fighters. But to the Germans, they were "terrorists". It depends where you're looking from.

I have read that part of the justification for the October missile attack was the frustration of the people of Gaza and Palestine, that a generation had been born and raised, and there had been no progress (by Hamas) toward repelling the military occupation. I cannot confirm this to be 100% factual, but it seems to make sense.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2024, 12:10 pm ...the news keeps saying innocent palestinians and that they are not hamas, - which isn’t true, in the main at least.

Hamas represents the people of Gaza, even the ones who didn't vote for them, because that's how democracy works. But the Palestinian people are as innocent as anyone in this terrible war. A war, incidentally, whose history goes back nearly 3000 years, not just to last October. The contemporary military occupation of Palestine began in 1947, when the UK/USA/UN 'gave' more than half of Palestine to Jewish terrorists, to appease their bombing and maiming campaign against innocent civilians. Not content with 'owning' more than half of Palestine, Israel has relentlessly extended its borders until today, when nearly all of historic Palestine is now controlled by Israel. As its final move, Israel seeks to kill the elected government of Gaza, and the other Palestinians too, so that Palestine is all theirs.


*************************************************

The situation in Palestine has changed over the past 75 years, and it would be folly to propose that Israel be ejected from Palestine. But equally, one can see the point of view of the Palestinians, whose land was taken from them, and were prevented from reclaiming it by the combined military forces of the Western World, Israel's allies. But that and more has happened, and there is no going back. So what about the future?

Israel should be persuaded to withdraw behind its 1947, or maybe 1967, borders, and stay there. Since before the 1947 Nakba, millions of Palestinians have died. It's time for the dying to stop, and not by the Palestinians giving up or surrendering. A just settlement between the two nations must somehow be found. And I haven't a clue how that might be achieved.

Mo_reese

I read what Pattern Chaser said as: Palestinians are not Hamas as Americans are not MAGA. Just because Hamas was elected in Gaza doesn't mean all Palestinians there are Hamas.

Well an israeli guy on the news yesterdays stated that, 70% of palastinians are on the side of ahamas and do agree with the attack on the 7th.

There is no justification to murder all Gaza Palestinians.

That, I agree with. Watching Israeli modern aircraft attacking far less armed or unarmed people is callous.

Pattern-chaser

I have read that part of the justification for the October missile attack was the frustration of the people of Gaza and Palestine, that a generation had been born and raised, and there had been no progress (by Hamas) toward repelling the military occupation

Islam has 2 billion people and a vast chunk of the earth, I don’t see why the Israelis can’t have their tiny bit. Its the fact that they cannot live together that makes me think the Palestinians should migrate elsewhere. I do think both sides are complicit in that intolerance though.

But the Palestinian people are as innocent as anyone in this terrible war.

Well they voted for Hamas, and you cannot tell me they didn’t know what that meant. Especially after all this time, all the bombs they have fired at Israelis, and all the attacks. This war is what happens when you get two completely intolerant peoples, it will always be hell even if eventually there is a two state solution. What would happen if the Palestinians who have doubled in number in a few decades, grew to be the larger number. How can democracy work then?

Why isn’t it Jewish land? At least what was Judea in Roman times and before.

_

amorphos_ii
“Well an israeli guy on the news yesterdays stated that, 70% of palastinians are on the side of ahamas and do agree with the attack on the 7th.”

> I am not surprised that some Palestinians support Hamas that is putting up a fight against those that are bombing the hell out of them.

amorphos_ii
“Islam has 2 billion people and a vast chunk of the earth, I don’t see why the Israelis can’t have their tiny bit. Its the fact that they cannot live together that makes me think the Palestinians should migrate elsewhere. I do think both sides are complicit in that intolerance though.”

> Israel was given some land at the expense of Palestine but they continue to expand which their neighbors don't appreciate. I think that even if Israel takes all of Palestine, they would still want more.

amorphos_ii
“Well they voted for Hamas, and you cannot tell me they didn’t know what that meant. Especially after all this time, all the bombs they have fired at Israelis, and all the attacks."

> This is a point that we hear a lot, but many in the US that voted for Biden do not support Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people. Interestingly enough, probably more people that didn't vote for Biden do support the genocide.

amorphos_ii
“Why isn’t it Jewish land? At least what was Judea in Roman times and before.”

> We can't start that. “You only own the land you did back when” Land has change hands many times over the centuries and most of the time illegally or immorally. The best we can do IMO is to try to stop current attempts at expansion.

I think you are right in that Israel would want to keep expanding, even if they moved Palestinians out in a peaceful migration of some sort.

I met a guy from the Lebanon at work once, he showed me photos of them drinking at a party – to wit I was surprised. He said ‘don’t believe the western propaganda, that we are all extremists. At the time I didn’t know my gran was jewish and we got on well.

Makes me wonder what the world would be like without all the labels we place upon ourselves. I wasn’t brought up in the faith nor have any affinity at all. Some Jews are not religious, some are socialists, others capitalist; none of it makes sense e.g. what then is a Jewish person or any ethnicity?

Does ethnicity exist? Is there any point to it, and wouldn’t humanity be better without any false distinctions!

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 18th, 2024, 6:28 am Gaza; questions that have not been asked by the media, or not enough.

after the attack on the 7th, why not ask the Palestinians; DO YOU AGREE WITH THE ATTACK?
and/or, DO YOU AGREE WITH HAMAS, ARE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ON THE SAME SIDE AS THEM, AND INDEED ARE INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM HAMAS?
If yes to any of these, then why are you feeling sorry for yourselves? If innocent then none of the above applies. I just want to know the answer to these questions! People can omit some aspects, as I speak too plainly, but if the questions are there then why on earth have they not been asked. I watch the news a lot, so if I did miss reporters asking Palestinians if they agree with the attack, they should ask it again and keep asking. The news are persistent with other questioning, so why not such fundamental ones?

Something for the Israelis [for balance]

is benjamin Netanyahu somewhere within the category ‘worst monsters in history?’. Not up there with Hitler, but in the wider perimeters of generally over excessive persons with too much power. I mean, watching modern military jets attach civillans!?

WHY DO WE SUPPORT THOSE WHO MURDER PEOPLE e.g. settlers attacking Palestinians in the west bank, and doing so seemingly since Israel’s inception as a sovereign state.





Just so you know; I am always only placing arguments before you, I don’t believe in belief except that of balance. In order to arrived at balanced argument, I have to put forwards even arguments I don’t like and possibly agree with people I don’t like. No ad-hominem required, I am not the arguments! They are just there and they exist.

_

What is your idea of balance? Is the Palestinian that openly supports Hamas believe in balance? Hamas has one goal- destroy Israel. If you look back at the deal that Israel offered the Palestinians when Clinton was president, Israel was wiling to give up part of the country to Palestinians. Palestine refuses to negotiate.
I don't think balance is something that can be achieved based on everyone having different views of what balance looks like.
Sadly, if you ask the Palestinians if they support the attack, they will say yes. Because if they don't, they and their family will be killed.

Pattern-chaser wrote:I have read that part of the justification for the October missile attack was the frustration of the people of Gaza and Palestine, that a generation had been born and raised, and there had been no progress (by Hamas) toward repelling the military occupation

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 30th, 2024, 6:21 pm Islam has 2 billion people and a vast chunk of the earth, I don’t see why the Israelis can’t have their tiny bit. Its the fact that they cannot live together that makes me think the Palestinians should migrate elsewhere. [...] Why isn’t it Jewish land? At least what was Judea in Roman times and before.

The Jews were ejected from the place they were living nearly 3000 years ago. They were ejected from the land where the ancestors of today's Palestinians lived, and carried on living until today. They lived in the Middle East alongside the Jews, who share their ethnic heritage. [Indigenous] Jews and Palestinians both have Semite ancestors.

I don't know why the Jews were ejected, or by whom. But such things happen throughout our human history, I'm afraid. Instead of the Palestinians having to leave the land where they have lived since before the Jews were ejected, why don't the Jews "migrate elsewhere"?

Since the Jews were ejected from the Middle East, the Roman Empire has risen and fallen again!

mounce

On the question of balance, at least one side has to not constantly provoke the other, and the other side has to not react. This happened somewhat from around 2007 until the Israelis thought of the reuse whereby they would show a perceived weakness, such that Hamas would then attack. Ergo the Israelis initiated the attack after a long relative peace [for that region anyhow].

It may be so that if Palestinians didn’t say they support Hamas, they would be killed. Question do they support Hamas anyhow [e.g. if you asked in private, to Palestinians not living in the region, so are more free to speak].

Pattern-chaser

were the Jews not living in Israel in Roman times [2000 years ago]?
I saw a map showing Semites originating in the south eastern Caucasus, and at the same time Canaanites where in Israel. I expect that if the out of Africa theory [which has changed dramatically since first proposed some 14 or so years ago] is true [I don’t think it is], then indeed Caucasians and Palestinians are the same or very similar. After all, one has to move up through the Lavant to reach the Caucasian mountain region.

Jews were not “expelled from their homeland”. Homeland is a deceiving term here. Judea was made a province of the Romans and around 70 AD the Romans crushed a rebellion, which ended in many jews killed, especially the elite class, some others ran away and many others stayed. It’s what usually happens. Eventually, the population that stayed converted to Christianity and later to Islam. By that time the Romans had already named the land Palestine, which remained occupied by this people for centuries, under different rulers. The old Hebrew language had disappeared long before and other languages were used, including the Arab language.

Project Israel was born in Europe from European jews with the intention to colonize Palestine. Small groups migrated in the 19th century, but they remained a minority, until they got help from the colonial powers actively pursuing the Zionist project after the fall of the Ottoman empire, as evidenced by the Balfour Declaration of 1916, allowing the new settlers to steal the land from the indigenous Palestinians and expelling them from their homes. This process of bringing new settlers increased as the Nazis came to power and implemented their antisemitic policies in Europe, accelerating the colonizing project in Palestine. Resistance was violently crushed by the British with thousands of Arab Palestinians killed, but eventually the British took a step back, imposing restrictions on jewish migration. That’s when jewish paramilitary/terrorist groups took over the role of crushing the Palestinian rebellion. Things got out of hands of the British when the terrorist groups started bombing buildings, so they left the problem to the UN, which came up with the famous 1947 partition. Then the major ethnic cleansing began, until today.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2024, 8:15 pm mounce

On the question of balance, at least one side has to not constantly provoke the other, and the other side has to not react. This happened somewhat from around 2007 until the Israelis thought of the reuse whereby they would show a perceived weakness, such that Hamas would then attack. Ergo the Israelis initiated the attack after a long relative peace [for that region anyhow].

It may be so that if Palestinians didn’t say they support Hamas, they would be killed. Question do they support Hamas anyhow [e.g. if you asked in private, to Palestinians not living in the region, so are more free to speak

On the Palestinians not living in the region, technically they have no leg to stand on. They don't live there.
So if Israel didn't retaliate, what do you think Hamas would have done? What about the unprovoked attack from Iran? Hezbollah?
What was the factor used by Hamas to attack Israel on Oct 7th? What did the babies and young children do to provoke being slaughtered in their homes? What did the people who were murdered leaving the festival do to deserve to die?

If Israel didn't do anything to retaliate, would Hamas stop killing innocent people? Have you seen the videos where the opened gate had Palestinians looting the houses and shops of the dead?

Neither side is innocent. The past can't be changed. But the future can if Palestine would quit harboring terrorists and stop making it a point to destroy the country of Israel. That is the reason Palestine is not a country. That would be like China saying they must destroy the United States as one of their mandated laws. Or the United States Constitution stating we must destroy Japan.
Balance will not achieve peace. Each side, each person, has a different view of what they believe is balance. Without negotiations, nobody is going to get anywhere. Palestine has refused all negotiations since Israel became a country in 1947.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑March 18th, 2024, 6:28 am Gaza; questions that have not been asked by the media, or not enough.

after the attack on the 7th, why not ask the Palestinians; DO YOU AGREE WITH THE ATTACK?
and/or, DO YOU AGREE WITH HAMAS, ARE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ON THE SAME SIDE AS THEM, AND INDEED ARE INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM HAMAS?
If yes to any of these, then why are you feeling sorry for yourselves? If innocent then none of the above applies. I just want to know the answer to these questions! People can omit some aspects, as I speak too plainly, but if the questions are there then why on earth have they not been asked. I watch the news a lot, so if I did miss reporters asking Palestinians if they agree with the attack, they should ask it again and keep asking. The news are persistent with other questioning, so why not such fundamental ones?

Something for the Israelis [for balance]

is benjamin Netanyahu somewhere within the category ‘worst monsters in history?’. Not up there with Hitler, but in the wider perimeters of generally over excessive persons with too much power. I mean, watching modern military jets attach civillans!?

WHY DO WE SUPPORT THOSE WHO MURDER PEOPLE e.g. settlers attacking Palestinians in the west bank, and doing so seemingly since Israel’s inception as a sovereign state.





Just so you know; I am always only placing arguments before you, I don’t believe in belief except that of balance. In order to arrived at balanced argument, I have to put forwards even arguments I don’t like and possibly agree with people I don’t like. No ad-hominem required, I am not the arguments! They are just there and they exist.

_

This is far too simplistic a view of the complex politics of a  state which has been in flux and conflict since half of it was forcibly colonised.  It's not like the cosy politics of a western democracy.  For one thing Hamas is acting as an authoritarian military dictatorship in Gaza (not all Palestine) which hasn't allowed an election in 15 years.  And it's claimed Hamas came to power with the help of Netinyahu who wanted an enemy to Israel for his own politicking reasons.



Regardless, even in 'legitimate' wars there are still standards many people consider going too far, some of which are enshrined in international law.  Deliberately targetting civilians who just happen to be born there, especially children, is 'going too far' for many of us. That's why we condemn the October 7th attack as particularly egregregious, as well as the much more deadly, in fact genocidal,  response by Israel. 



We can imagine the horror of the October 7th attack happening to us, it feels up close and  face to face.  But when we see pictures of distant bomb blasts dropped on cities from invisible planes and drones, when humanitarian aid is blocked by bureaucratic manipulation, it's not so visceral to us.  But its effects are much the same, only far more innocents suffering  and dying in Gaza.   And this is being done by a country which is heralded as shining example of a democracy in the 'backward' Middle East.  Armed and funded by cosy democracies like the US and UK for their own geo-political ends.  So are we in those countries responsible too, in our cosy democracies, should we have no right to complain if rockets are launched at us?  Suck it up like the ordinary people living in Beirut right now as their city is bombed? 


The UK still has a powerful national memory of the German bombing Blitz on our cities in WWII, it was absolutely devastating, terrorising and obscene mass murder of ordinary people. Likewise the bombing of Dresden.   Many UK families like mine sent their children to live in the countryside during the Blitz where they'd be safer, while the rest cowered in underground shelters (like metro 'tunnels'). But the Gazan families have nowhere to send their kids.  Their schools, hospitals, emergency services as well as food and medical aid have been targetted too.  Imagine it.  Then ask them if they deserve it because they are Hamas.  Or maybe don't?