Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[HJCarden]

For my whole life I have been taught not to be racist. When I was a youth, the idea was that we should treat everyone the same way no matter their skin color or ethnicity or religious beliefs or gender. Now I am told that thinking this way IS actually racist itself, and I must hyperfocus on these incidents of ancestry and seek to uplift the marginalized at any cost to the oppressor class. All this is well and good if you believe that type of stuff, but a serious fatal undercurrent seems to be present.

Discussions of not being racist focus primarily on material outcomes now in the US. Why are black students not accepted into college at rates comparable to asians or whites? Because of some long story of racism. The solution: affirmative action, essentially lowering standards to allow in members of marginalized classes. Yet again, not debating this point.

However, I realized this focus has been rotting the racial consciousness of many in the West when the Hamas attacks took place in Israel last year. So many bleeding heart liberals from all over the internet and even people I talk to in person saying that they just wish both sides would realize their shared humanity and work together for a solution. How naive.

Whats occurring in Israel/Palestine (I do not care one way or the other) is a race war. Two groups of people who hate, and I mean hate eachother are fighting. This is not about the material outcomes. This is not about finding a two state solution. The Palestinians (and the rest of the middle east) hate Israel, and Israel hates them at the deepest level of hate. The naivety of first world "anti-racists" believing that the two sides could truly peacefully co-exist is astounding. The focus in the west on the material outcomes of "racism" has made people blind to the fact that racism could exist without effecting material outcomes. Some people just do not like other people. I do not believe there will ever be a peaceful solution to the Israeli/Palestine conflict. That region of the world will be in perpetual conflict for the foreseeable future. It does not matter what concessions Israel or Hamas makes. Both groups hate eachother

I think the reason this great naivety exists is due to the abundance we experience in America. There is plenty enough to be "redistributed equitably" without significantly reducing our quality of life, so we can continue to play this game of racial appeasement. But through no unique sin, if this were not the case the US would be embroiled in racial conflicts like the ones we see on CNN. Stop with the naivety and armchair global politics. Understand that the world does not have the abundance we find here, and that the only thing that will ease these conflicts is an increased GLOBAL standard of living.

[Lagayascienza]

Well if it all boils down to the fact that the two sides in the ME conflict just hate each other, then will an increase in abundance and quality of life solve the problem? The source of the problem was the partition of Palestine. Nothing is going to change that. Therefore, I think you are right that there will never be a peaceful solution.

As for racism generally, I still believe in taking people as I find them individually. The very concept of race is nonsense. We are one species with a bunch of surface variations like color, shape of eyes, height etc. But it's just surface stuff. Understanding that can help diffuse racism as can an acceptance and tolerance of differences in culture. People like the Nazis who wanted to divide humanity in to the worthy and unworthy on the basis of race were dealing in nonsense. But it was nonsense a lot of people at the time wanted to hear. We must hope that the current crop of racists and Nazis do not get a strong hold on the minds of too many people.

[HJCarden]

As for racism generally, I still believe in taking people as I find them individually. The very concept of race is nonsense. We are one species with a bunch of surface variations like color, shape of eyes, height etc. But it's just surface stuff. Understanding that can help diffuse racism as can an acceptance and tolerance of differences in culture. People like the Nazis who wanted to divide humanity in to the worthy and unworthy on the basis of race were dealing in nonsense. But it was nonsense a lot of people at the time wanted to hear. We must hope that the current crop of racists and Nazis do not get a strong hold on the minds of too many people.

No one can sensibly hold the idea that racial differences are simply skin deep. All but 4 of the fastest 100 10,000m runners are from the same part of Eastern Africa. Revisit this post the next time a white guy wins gold sprinting in the Olympics.

Never did my post mention moving people from worthy to unworthy categories. This simply reveals the reflex among westerners to associate any real honesty about racial differences to an attempt to divide. Rather, seeking to understand these differences is how we can move forwards as a society and strive for the best outcomes.

This fear that the "current nazis" ideas will take hold among people is admitting they have wide prima fascia appeal. Shouting down everyone who seeks to understand why people act differently as a racist will only amplify their opinions.

[Lagayascienza]

I did mention difference such as color, shape of eyes and height. Leg length and ability to run faster is just one of those surface differences.

I did not shout you down. Accusing others of shouting you down is a common ploy - its just playing the victim card. Calling people "bleeding heart liberals" is a similar ploy. People can reasonably disagree about racism. Name calling does not address the problem.

What is happening in the ME is a land grab and not a race war. The Jews and Arabs are both semitic peoples. The differences are cultural rather than racial.

[Lagayascienza]

This fear that the "current nazis" ideas will take hold among people is admitting they have wide prima fascia appeal. Shouting down everyone who seeks to understand why people act differently as a racist will only amplify their opinions.

I grant that for some people the current crop of Nazis do have appeal. That, IMO, is regrettable. If the Nazis were not racist then they were nothing. Nazism is a ghastly doctrine that saw the extermination of millions based on their race. It is unfortunate that still today there is a group of people who deny the holocaust or think that it was ok back then and may still be ok today. We must hope that their appeal remains marginal.

[Sea Turtle]

this is an old topic, but a good and useful one. definitely not solved yet.

so many facets of this in play.

Overall it is a spectrum problem. I use silly example to explain.

When we cut down a tree, we are killing it. This is OK because we are better than the tree, racist about trees.
When we kill a dog, this is ok because we are racist vs dog. But some will tell that it is wrong and those include dog into there circle.
When we describe a Chimp and a Gorilla, we are racist about that. We do not expect those two very close primates to be equal.

We can walk this all the way out until we have for example human male identical twins. Not much differences so probably not racist vs each other.

The point is where do we make the circle of us/them. For sure a rock is them not us. How about a dog.., male/female, different physical characteristics, different mental characteristics. Are we racist vs people that are not smart, not wealthy, different color.....

We tell others they must adjust the circle they have to include those that WE want them to. All the while excluding those same others from our circle because we don't agree with how they form the circle they have.

Your racist, meaning that I demand you change your circle to fit my wishes. Narcissist to the max. In my opinion.

Everything that we have done to another race, we have done to our own race in some way.

The roots of all of this are deeper in understanding what we are.

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, I agree that racism is not a simple matter. It still seems to be deep-rooted in the psyches of many. One thing I would say about racism, though, is that it can come back and bite us on the ass because there is no gurantee that a racial group in charge today will be in charge in future. With that in mind, and just because it seems morally right to me, I say we should do unto others as we would like to be done unto, and that we should not do unto others as we would not like to be done unto. I think racism is nonsense. And I think it is harmful to both the racist (of whatever race) and to his/her victims. Therefore, on prudential grounds, if not on moral grounds, I think that I, personally, should try not to be racist. And, therefore, I hope others will see things as I do and also try not to be racists.

[HJCarden]

I did mention difference such as color, shape of eyes and height. Leg length and ability to run faster is just one of those surface differences.

I did not shout you down. Accusing others of shouting you down is a common ploy - its just playing the victim card. Calling people "bleeding heart liberals" is a similar ploy. People can reasonably disagree about racism. Name calling does not address the problem.

What else is included in surface differences? Why is the US national math competition team almost entirely made up of East Asians every year? The idea of only "surface level" differences, and not differences that contribute to radically different outcomes in complex systems, are real between races is the myth that must be crushed. We cannot ignore that the ethnic makeup and cultural background of any given person can and will play a significant role in their success in any society they are placed in, be they natives or foreigners. AND it is most important to note that this is true because of the differences that actually exist between groups, and cannot ENTIRELY be because of "structural racism".

[HJCarden]

Yes, I agree that racism is not a simple matter. It still seems to be deep-rooted in the psyches of many. One thing I would say about racism, though, is that it can come back and bite us on the ass because there is no gurantee that a racial group in charge today will be in charge in future. With that in mind, and just because it seems morally right to me, I say we should do unto others as we would like to be done unto, and that we should not do unto others as we would not like to be done unto. I think racism is nonsense. And I think it is harmful to both the racist (of whatever race) and to his/her victims. Therefore, on prudential grounds, if not on moral grounds, I think that I, personally, should try not to be racist. And, therefore, I hope others will see things as I do and also try not to be racists.

My post was attempting to bring focus to the overemphasis on outcomes for different races in the Western world, and discuss purportedly racist beliefs with clarity. This is not about hedging ones bets with how one group treats another, rather it is about being honest about differences between groups. If we can be honest about real differences between groups and not just how our TREATMENT of other groups differs, we can learn how to live best in multi-ethnic societies and systems.

[Xenophon]

For my whole life I have been taught not to be racist. When I was a youth, the idea was that we should treat everyone the same way no matter their skin color or ethnicity or religious beliefs or gender. Now I am told that thinking this way IS actually racist itself, and I must hyperfocus on these incidents of ancestry and seek to uplift the marginalized at any cost to the oppressor class. All this is well and good if you believe that type of stuff, but a serious fatal undercurrent seems to be present.

Discussions of not being racist focus primarily on material outcomes now in the US. Why are black students not accepted into college at rates comparable to asians or whites? Because of some long story of racism. The solution: affirmative action, essentially lowering standards to allow in members of marginalized classes. Yet again, not debating this point.

However, I realized this focus has been rotting the racial consciousness of many in the West when the Hamas attacks took place in Israel last year. So many bleeding heart liberals from all over the internet and even people I talk to in person saying that they just wish both sides would realize their shared humanity and work together for a solution. How naive.

Whats occurring in Israel/Palestine (I do not care one way or the other) is a race war. Two groups of people who hate, and I mean hate eachother are fighting. This is not about the material outcomes. This is not about finding a two state solution. The Palestinians (and the rest of the middle east) hate Israel, and Israel hates them at the deepest level of hate. The naivety of first world "anti-racists" believing that the two sides could truly peacefully co-exist is astounding. The focus in the west on the material outcomes of "racism" has made people blind to the fact that racism could exist without effecting material outcomes. Some people just do not like other people. I do not believe there will ever be a peaceful solution to the Israeli/Palestine conflict. That region of the world will be in perpetual conflict for the foreseeable future. It does not matter what concessions Israel or Hamas makes. Both groups hate eachother

I think the reason this great naivety exists is due to the abundance we experience in America. There is plenty enough to be "redistributed equitably" without significantly reducing our quality of life, so we can continue to play this game of racial appeasement. But through no unique sin, if this were not the case the US would be embroiled in racial conflicts like the ones we see on CNN. Stop with the naivety and armchair global politics. Understand that the world does not have the abundance we find here, and that the only thing that will ease these conflicts is an increased GLOBAL standard of living.

I give it about 5 years till the U.S. is embroiled in racial conflicts just like the ones seen on CNN. Helpful hint about history: people only want "equality" till they sense they can seize hegemony. American's dominant ethnic strains have been primed for about a half century for passive surrender.

[Lagayascienza]

Ok, so what are thee differences you think are important?

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, I agree that racism is not a simple matter. It still seems to be deep-rooted in the psyches of many. One thing I would say about racism, though, is that it can come back and bite us on the ass because there is no gurantee that a racial group in charge today will be in charge in future. With that in mind, and just because it seems morally right to me, I say we should do unto others as we would like to be done unto, and that we should not do unto others as we would not like to be done unto. I think racism is nonsense. And I think it is harmful to both the racist (of whatever race) and to his/her victims. Therefore, on prudential grounds, if not on moral grounds, I think that I, personally, should try not to be racist. And, therefore, I hope others will see things as I do and also try not to be racists.

My post was attempting to bring focus to the overemphasis on outcomes for different races in the Western world, and discuss purportedly racist beliefs with clarity. This is not about hedging ones bets with how one group treats another, rather it is about being honest about differences between groups. If we can be honest about real differences between groups and not just how our TREATMENT of other groups differs, we can learn how to live best in multi-ethnic societies and systems.

Here, and in other threads, you talk about racial differences, differences between groups, differences that you (presumably) see as salient or important. What are these differences and why are they important. And what do you mean by an "over-emphasis on outcomes"? I think you need to be clear about what you are arguing for or against and, if possible, support your argument with evidence. As it is, it's hard to know whether your position is racist or not.

[HJCarden]

Here, and in other threads, you talk about racial differences, differences between groups, differences that you (presumably) see as salient or important. What are these differences and why are they important. And what do you mean by an "over-emphasis on outcomes"? I think you need to be clear about what you are arguing for or against and, if possible, support your argument with evidence. As it is, it's hard to know whether your position is racist or not.

It seems like you cant evaluate whether my arguments are right or wrong without first deciding if it is racist first. You have sacrificed the pursuit of right and wrong, the pursuit of TRUTH (kinda what philosophy is about) to make sure you score Im Not Racist points. The evidence I present is all around you. Look at the world and tell me that everyone is the same. Have different societies, the vast majority of which have been mono-racial in their ruling class for centuries, created different outcomes for their people? Is modern day Japan different from modern day Chile? If yes, you have to then accept that it is at least possibly due to the type of people that live in these countries. Or is everything bad created by mean European colonials and everything good is created by the innocent natives of colonized lands? If that is your moral axis, you are lost. If you can accept that people are different and say that it is neither bad, nor good, then you can move forwards regarding these differences.

[Lagayascienza]

I have never suggested that there were not differences. I have asked you several times to point out the difference that you think are important. You refuse to do so. I wonder why that is.

[popeye1945]

The interesting thing about human differences causing racism, and a desire to be all-inclusive is; if it were to come to pass the population would become homogenized/become one in phenotype. All would be citizens of one culture. Perhaps the differing geographies would make that impossible. If it were conceivable, it would be the racist's dreamland, but in sameness, we would find short people insufferable, or people with blue eyes, we would find something.