Philosophy Discussion Forums

As an atheist, I still find myself uttering phrases such as “Oh, my god!”, “God only knows!”, “Heaven help us!”, “Why the hell did you do that?”… I don’t think that this is an indication that I haven’t fully ditched religion; that I still harbor belief in god(s) or hopes of ending up in heaven and not hell when I die. It’s just habit, and an indication of how deeply these expressions, which denote shock, surprise, fear, etcetera, are imbedded in our language. I understand that they just express emotions and that they do not refer to anything that I consider to be unreal such as gods, heaven or hell. By continuing to utter them, I don’t think I’m subconsciously trying to keep a foot in both camps.

On the spectrum of belief in the supernatural, it seems to me that there are atheists like me at one end and, at the other end of the spectrum, there are fully practicing religious believers who organize their lives around religion, some of whom even go around knocking on doors in an effort to convert others to their religion. Between these extremes there are agnostics who just don’t know. I this middle area, I understand that there are also those who call themselves “non-religious but spiritual”. Some of these even say that they don’t believe in anything supernatural and yet they still call themselves “spiritual”.

It may be an indication of my own limitations, but I have trouble getting my head around this section of the middle area of the spectrum. If one does not believe in the supernatural then surely one is an atheist, no? What does it mean, what could it mean, to be a “spiritual” atheist? Is it just trying to keep a foot in both camps? Is there a way to be a spiritual atheist and still maintain a straight face? Are there any spiritual atheists here who could tell us how they manage it?

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 11:17 am It may be an indication of my own limitations, but I have trouble getting my head around this section of the middle area of the spectrum. If one does not believe in the supernatural then surely one is an atheist, no? What does it mean, what could it mean, to be a “spiritual” atheist? Is it just trying to keep a foot in both camps? Is there a way to be a spiritual atheist and still maintain a straight face? Are there any spiritual atheists here who could tell us how they manage it?

No. Well, yes, but only if this is a binary issue ... and I don't think it is. There is room in the middle for many of us, who (for various reasons) are really sure. Some of us have beliefs that don't really qualify as religious, so we call them 'spiritual', and continue in our uncertainty. Is that so wrong? And is it so difficult to understand?



I say "us", above, although I am a believer myself, but much closer to the 'only-spiritual' people than to the dogmatic extremists that feature so prominently in (for example) American Fundamentalist Christianity.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 11:38 am

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 11:17 am It may be an indication of my own limitations, but I have trouble getting my head around this section of the middle area of the spectrum. If one does not believe in the supernatural then surely one is an atheist, no? What does it mean, what could it mean, to be a “spiritual” atheist? Is it just trying to keep a foot in both camps? Is there a way to be a spiritual atheist and still maintain a straight face? Are there any spiritual atheists here who could tell us how they manage it?

No. Well, yes, but only if this is a binary issue ... and I don't think it is. There is room in the middle for many of us, who (for various reasons) are really sure. Some of us have beliefs that don't really qualify as religious, so we call them 'spiritual', and continue in our uncertainty. Is that so wrong? And is it so difficult to understand?

Well, yes, it's difficult for me. That's why I posted the question. I want to know what it means to be a "spiritual atheist" because I don't get it. I grant that there is a middle ground between belief and non-belief bit "spiritual" and "atheist" seem to be terms that are diametrically opposed. So how do folks manage it?

If you engage reality through any related practice you will eventually come across what is called God...

I will tell you the position isn't necessary along the way...

Notions that God is supernatural are absurd...

It is just the nature of reality itself.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 11:38 am I say "us", above, although I am a believer myself, but much closer to the 'only-spiritual' people than to the dogmatic extremists that feature so prominently in (for example) American Fundamentalist Christianity.

We should stop calling them dogmatic or fundamentalist...

They are not upholding the message of the New Testament at all...

They are something closer to Neopharisee.

Look at things like 2 Corinthians 3, Hebrews 7, Ephesians 2:11-22, Galatians 4:19-31

Genuine Christianity is summarized by combining John 17:20-26 and 1 John 4:7-21

Ramifications include 1 Corinthians 2:12-16, 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 etc

Galatians 3:28 tells us the work of Jesus is to cause henosis.

(I can speak on many religions in this way, because I have looked into each with insight rather than from ignorance)

(I am not religious because taking a position before inquiry is unreasonable)

(I favor philosophy because it provides tools to find out)

(I am a sage because I let go of ignorance)

Exactly because what is called God is a reality there are actually things you can say which are wrong about it...

You will find most of the reasons you consider yourself atheist are a function of wrong positions.

FrankSophia wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm If you engage reality through any related practice you will eventually come across what is called God...

I will tell you the position isn't necessary along the way...

Notions that God is supernatural are absurd...

It is just the nature of reality itself.

For me, reality is what I can arrive at through logic and what I can apprehend through my sensorium and extensions thereof. If God and the supernatural are absurd (as you say (as I believe they are) as an explanation for the universe, can you explain to me what the "nature of reality itself" is if it is not arrived at through logic and our senses. How can I study and come to understand this reality?

Like any meme, deities are subjectively real. There is no actual conflict between being an ontic atheist and subjective theist.

One could theoretically call on vampires or The Flying Spaghetti Monster for comfort in hard times, but it lacks the deep conditioning. Until recently, almost every ancestor we have over the past million years would have believed in the supernatural. Consider all those brains wired to think in that way down the generation passing on the genes, and then having them epigenetically altered by cultures that completely believed in supernatural things.

We still have the capacity to draw on the "magic" within our brains if we choose. Most don't, because they figure that one needs to believe irrational things to do it. That is common, but it need not necessarily be the case. We are free to leverage our brains any way we please within our own heads, just as long as there's no confusion between the subjective and objective.

But isn't that just making stuff up? I don't want to do that. I want to know what is objectively real, which for me is what is logically possible and can be empirically tested. If there is a spiritual "basis of reality" that is accessed by other means as some assert, I'd like to know about this basis of reality and how it is accessed. I want to know how one can be a "spiritual atheist" which, to me, seems like a contradiction.

FrankSophia wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm If you engage reality through any related practice you will eventually come across what is called God...

I will tell you the position isn't necessary along the way...

Notions that God is supernatural are absurd...

It is just the nature of reality itself.

This sounds deep but, to me, it's opaque. What is this related practice that will result in one coming "across what is called god"...
If god is not supernatural then he must be something else. What?

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 9:17 pm

FrankSophia wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 1:57 pm If you engage reality through any related practice you will eventually come across what is called God...

I will tell you the position isn't necessary along the way...

Notions that God is supernatural are absurd...

It is just the nature of reality itself.

For me, reality is what I can arrive at through logic and what I can apprehend through my sensorium and extensions thereof. If God and the supernatural are absurd (as you say (as I believe they are) as an explanation for the universe, can you explain to me what the "nature of reality itself" is if it is not arrived at through logic and our senses. How can I study and come to understand this reality?

You will experience God through your senses...

Engage the practices and find out.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 3:12 am This sounds deep but, to me, it's opaque. What is this related practice that will result in one coming "across what is called god"...
If god is not supernatural then he must be something else. What?

Meditation will do it over time because the individual dissolves into the whole...

Contemplating opposites until the mind exhausts itself will reveal the whole...

Literally every spiritual practice that focuses on direct experience will cause it, you just have to find what is most effective for you.

This is exactly why the notion isn't necessary along the way though...

Everyone has stupid notions about God that just get in the way.