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A one-of-a-kind oasis of intelligent, in-depth, productive, civil debate.

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Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
By amorphos_ii
#441979
Singularity or black hole?

Calculus began from the Hindu notion: ‘you can take an infinity [0] from and infinity and be left with an infinity’. As there are no limits to how much you can do this, we can derive an infinite set or sets. The first iteration or instance of such will manifest the number two, because there are now 2 infinite 0’s, and the number 1 because the tow came from the 1. so on and so forth, we can spread numbers [possibly in multiples of prime numbers as this would be the fastest way] potentially across the infinite sets but never arrive at infinite numbers because we cannot build up to that. In short then, we are left [by the process] with finite sets of numbers.

With this we now have a framework of cardinality/maths for the universe to go by. Then as we have limits and amounts and because energy is conserved, the whole universe would ‘begin’ with the whole amount available, which we call singularity.

There cannot be just nothing and only that, because nothing is infinite which has infinite sets of nothing – and so on and so forth.

The singularity will have as much gravity as can exist, possibly all energy would at this point be gravity. When you get large amounts of gravity you have black holes even super massive black holes. At the centre or epicentre of these, time recedes infinitely. I propose that at the end of the universe there is also a singularity or more an ultra-massive black hole with time also infinitely receding. In a manner of speaking the universe like a set of books, bookended by the two black holes, both of which recede infinitely.

So there it is, you can have a finite universe with no beginning nor end, and no need for anything to make it, no first cause – because its infinite as well.

_
By Joshua10
#442084
To describe a hole as black is unbalanced.A hole is not black,It’s just a hole philosophically.One may not think this is important and dismiss it however you will get your science wrong if you do.

Modern day science has dismissed it and therefore has got it’s science wrong.
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#442089
I like to think that the Big Bang was a white hole that nothing can enter unless it travels backwards in time. However, what I like to think and what is real are not necessarily synonymous.

I also like to think that this Big Bang was far from the first one. In that I am more confident. There is one possibility that this was the first BB and countless possibilities of there being more.

Thus, chances are that the end of the universe will contain a singularity, one way or another. The next singularity might be relative (as might they all be), as per Roger Penrose's conformal cyclic cosmology (CCC). (A pretty approximate explanation).

When I imagine the Big Bang, I don't imagine a singularity as a thing but a hole in the fabric of reality between dimensions, through which energy pour from one to the other. Then again, Lawrence Krauss imagines it as a fluctuation of vacuum energy, which usually immediately annihilate but, for some reason, grows instead. (Another approximate explanation).
By amorphos_ii
#442144
It’s black because light cannot escape it, and is not a hole as such but a vast mass of gravity and energy which has been sucked into the.

So ‘black whole’ then :)

Anything other than one universe and one occurrence has the same problems e.g. how many and then what came before the first is asked again, the same as for this universe.

I am more inclined toward ‘something else’ before and after the universe, but that is mad as is one universe and then? When this universe is gone was it ever here given that its history is within it.

A pointless exercise in futility? Ok it manifest us and we could live forever in some eternal world, but that would become stale and God may want yet more children etc.

could be some kind of ‘Borg perfection’ ~ which is unfair on us, to just be some puppets to the becoming of a greater intellect or being.

...or is 'everything is eventually gone' the ultimate?
By Joshua10
#442150
A hole is just a hole.

You need to separate out black or white from it and give it its own description.

GLASS for example.

A massive realization at both the philosophical/psychological and scientific levels.
By Alan Masterman
#442290
amorphos_ii wrote: May 18th, 2023, 11:00 pm Singularity or black hole?

Calculus began from the Hindu notion: ‘you can take an infinity [0] from and infinity and be left with an infinity’. As there are no limits to how much you can do this, we can derive an infinite set or sets. The first iteration or instance of such will manifest the number two, because there are now 2 infinite 0’s, and the number 1 because the tow came from the 1. so on and so forth, we can spread numbers [possibly in multiples of prime numbers as this would be the fastest way] potentially across the infinite sets but never arrive at infinite numbers because we cannot build up to that. In short then, we are left [by the process] with finite sets of numbers.

With this we now have a framework of cardinality/maths for the universe to go by. Then as we have limits and amounts and because energy is conserved, the whole universe would ‘begin’ with the whole amount available, which we call singularity.

There cannot be just nothing and only that, because nothing is infinite which has infinite sets of nothing – and so on and so forth.

The singularity will have as much gravity as can exist, possibly all energy would at this point be gravity. When you get large amounts of gravity you have black holes even super massive black holes. At the centre or epicentre of these, time recedes infinitely. I propose that at the end of the universe there is also a singularity or more an ultra-massive black hole with time also infinitely receding. In a manner of speaking the universe like a set of books, bookended by the two black holes, both of which recede infinitely.

So there it is, you can have a finite universe with no beginning nor end, and no need for anything to make it, no first cause – because its infinite as well.

_
amorphos, your first paragraph is mathematically unintelligible. The numbers 1 and 2 have no logical connection with the definition or properties of infinity. Are you familiar with the work done by Russell, Cantor and others? Your first sentence is partially correct; an infinity subtracted from an infinity may well equal an infinity; but the null set has nothing to do with it - and the rest is unintelligible.
By Joshua10
#442323
The problem with the black hole idea is that all matter doesn’t appear/disappear into one hole now and won’t do in the future.That is just made up nonsense..

Observations clearly show that matter is appearing and disappearing from many many holes and always will until it all disappears to leave just holes (not black) within the electromagnetic fields that saturate the universe.

The scientific model is wrong you see.
By amorphos_ii
#442545
alan

The numbers are simple abstracted from the idea where you can get 2 of an infinite set of 0 infinities. So 2 ‘0’s are still 2 even though that does not mean that the numbers exist in some other manner than a pure abstraction.

Joshua 10

Your second sentence appears to contradict the first? Secondly what is it that comes out of a black hole ~ that must I assume travel faster than the speed of light? Tachyons perhaps.

Anyhow, as we are talking about a beginning where the entire universe is in a single ultra massive black hole, I can’t see anything coming out of that.

I have heard it said that as we go earlier in time in the first iterations of singularity, then particles may not have even formed yet. Or at least that ‘our usual concepts of physics goes out the window’.
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#443773
amorphos_ii wrote: June 15th, 2023, 12:18 pm My theory is that when the universe collapses [if it does], then these huge gravity masses will be brought together.
Of course, none of us can know. I love the idea of the BB as a white hole or black but expert opinions vary on this issue. If you have a singularity, then you logically have either a black or white hole.

Penrose's conformal cyclical cosmology is interesting:
the universe iterates through infinite cycles, with the future timelike infinity (i.e. the latest end of any possible timescale evaluated for any point in space) of each previous iteration being identified with the Big Bang singularity of the next.
The problem is evidence. Certain things have been speculated as artefacts of previous universes but there's much dispute about them. It might be impossible for us, with current capabilities, to observe any evidence of prior universes, if they exist.
By Joshua10
#443835
What observations are suggesting is that it doesn't matter how far back in time you look the galaxies are as mature as the galaxy that we reside in.This suggests that any matter that enters and exits the universe is always specific to the galaxy it is associated with. This means that there never was a single big bang and there never will be a single big crunch either. Modern day science and the half logic philosophy that predicted it is in tatters I'm afraid. What a waste of time and effort.

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