Philosophy Discussion Forums

To show this we first notice that any act including the act of creation has a before and an after. This means that time is needed for any act since there is a before and an after in any act. The act of creation however includes the creation of time as well. This means that we need time for the creation of time. This leads to an infinite regress. The infinite regress is not acceptable. Therefore, the act of creation from nothing is logically impossible.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 8:25 am To show this we first notice that any act including the act of creation has a before and an after. This means that time is needed for any act since there is a before and an after in any act. The act of creation however includes the creation of time as well. This means that we need time for the creation of time. This leads to an infinite regress. The infinite regress is not acceptable. Therefore, the act of creation from nothing is logically impossible.

Well, time isn't real at all. Time was never created because it doesn't exist.

So, by your same argument extended, no creation really exists at all: Nothing was ever created nor will it ever be created.

One could take that as an argumentum ad absurdum to disprove your argument, but I wouldn't. I think it is agreeable, in at least one strict sense of the words, namely in terms of absolute reality as opposed to relative realities, or virtual realities.

For more on the fact that time is not real, please see these other topics of mine:

- Time is not real. Correspondingly, nothing real is temporary.

- In the same sense leftness is not real, time is not real.

- Would Flat-Land Four-Eyed Freddy Notice a Difference?

- Objective Leftness and Rightness Do Not Exist

- Neither time, time-ness, unconscious here-ness, unconscious now-ness, nor any unconscious presence exist.

Scott wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 11:42 am

Bahman wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 8:25 am To show this we first notice that any act including the act of creation has a before and an after. This means that time is needed for any act since there is a before and an after in any act. The act of creation however includes the creation of time as well. This means that we need time for the creation of time. This leads to an infinite regress. The infinite regress is not acceptable. Therefore, the act of creation from nothing is logically impossible.

Well, time isn't real at all. Time was never created because it doesn't exist.

So, by your same argument extended, no creation really exists at all: Nothing was ever created nor will it ever be created.

One could take that as an argumentum ad absurdum to disprove your argument, but I wouldn't. I think it is agreeable, in at least one strict sense of the words, namely in terms of absolute reality as opposed to relative realities, or virtual realities.

For more on the fact that time is not real, please see these other topics of mine:

- Time is not real. Correspondingly, nothing real is temporary.

- In the same sense leftness is not real, time is not real.

- Would Flat-Land Four-Eyed Freddy Notice a Difference?

- Objective Leftness and Rightness Do Not Exist

- Neither time, time-ness, unconscious here-ness, unconscious now-ness, nor any unconscious presence exist.

Well, conceptually events occur either simultaneously or temporally. There is no other option. Our reality clearly is not simultaneous since you are not old and young, dead and alive, etc. at the same point. Therefore, our reality is temporal.

I will shortly comment on your threads. I will be happy to read your argumentum ad absurdum that disproves my argument.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 12:13 pm Well, conceptually events occur either simultaneously or temporally. There is no other option.

That is simply not true, and thus is a false dichotomy.

Relativity of Simultaneity, as theorized by Einstein and repeatedly proven by scientific experiment, proves that dichotomy is false.

One of the best illustrations is the Train in the Tunnel Paradox, which cannot be resolved without understanding and accepting the Relativity of Simultaneity.

For more on the relativity of time, the relativity of timeness, and the relativity of simultaneity, please do check the topics I linked to in my last post:

Scott wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 11:42 am
For more on the fact that time is not real, please see these other topics of mine:

- Time is not real. Correspondingly, nothing real is temporary.

- In the same sense leftness is not real, time is not real.

- Would Flat-Land Four-Eyed Freddy Notice a Difference?

- Objective Leftness and Rightness Do Not Exist

- Neither time, time-ness, unconscious here-ness, unconscious now-ness, nor any unconscious presence exist.

I also forgot to mention my even more recent post which also discusses the illusionary nature of time (and by extension the relativity of timeness and the relativity of simultaneity) in my topic, Commentary on self-transcendence, ego death, and dying before you die; with a finger snap more brutal than Thanos

Scott wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 11:42 am
Well, time isn't real at all.

That would depend upon the criteria you've adopted for pronouncing something "real."

Bahman wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 8:25 am To show this we first notice that any act including the act of creation has a before and an after. This means that time is needed for any act since there is a before and an after in any act. The act of creation however includes the creation of time as well. This means that we need time for the creation of time. This leads to an infinite regress. The infinite regress is not acceptable. Therefore, the act of creation from nothing is logically impossible.

A timeless world is absolutely static ("frozen"), so nothing can happen or be done therein. The idea of an atemporal creation of time is self-contradictory, since all creations are essentially time-involving.
"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light." – It necessarily takes some (interval of) time to say or think "Let there be light!". Sayings (speech-acts) and thinkings (thought-acts) are temporal processes that cannot possibly occur in a timeless world.

"The distinction between past, present, and future is only an illusion, however persistent."

(Einstein in a letter to Michelangelo Besso, 21 March 1955)

Many people read this as meaning that Einstein denied the reality of time, Well, he didn't, as Tim Maudlin explains:

https://youtu.be/hC3ckLqsL5M?t=500

Scott wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 6:50 pm

Bahman wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 12:13 pm Well, conceptually events occur either simultaneously or temporally. There is no other option.

That is simply not true, and thus is a false dichotomy.

Relativity of Simultaneity, as theorized by Einstein and repeatedly proven by scientific experiment, proves that dichotomy is false.

One of the best illustrations is the Train in the Tunnel Paradox, which cannot be resolved without understanding and accepting the Relativity of Simultaneity.

I am aware of that. When I talk about events I mean things that happen to the same object. For example, you cannot be old and young at the same point.

Scott wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 6:50 pm For more on the relativity of time, the relativity of timeness, and the relativity of simultaneity, please do check the topics I linked to in my last post:

Scott wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 11:42 am
For more on the fact that time is not real, please see these other topics of mine:

- Time is not real. Correspondingly, nothing real is temporary.

- In the same sense leftness is not real, time is not real.

- Would Flat-Land Four-Eyed Freddy Notice a Difference?

- Objective Leftness and Rightness Do Not Exist

- Neither time, time-ness, unconscious here-ness, unconscious now-ness, nor any unconscious presence exist.

I also forgot to mention my even more recent post which also discusses the illusionary nature of time (and by extension the relativity of timeness and the relativity of simultaneity) in my topic, Commentary on self-transcendence, ego death, and dying before you die; with a finger snap more brutal than Thanos

Ok, I will check those threads shortly.

Consul wrote: ↑February 15th, 2023, 3:51 am

Bahman wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 8:25 am To show this we first notice that any act including the act of creation has a before and an after. This means that time is needed for any act since there is a before and an after in any act. The act of creation however includes the creation of time as well. This means that we need time for the creation of time. This leads to an infinite regress. The infinite regress is not acceptable. Therefore, the act of creation from nothing is logically impossible.

A timeless world is absolutely static ("frozen"), so nothing can happen or be done therein. The idea of an atemporal creation of time is self-contradictory, since all creations are essentially time-involving.
"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light." – It necessarily takes some (interval of) time to say or think "Let there be light!". Sayings (speech-acts) and thinkings (thought-acts) are temporal processes that cannot possibly occur in a timeless world.

Yes, I agree with you.

Scott wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 6:50 pm I also forgot to mention my even more recent post which also discusses the illusionary nature of time (and by extension the relativity of timeness and the relativity of simultaneity) in my topic, Commentary on self-transcendence, ego death, and dying before you die; with a finger snap more brutal than Thanos

I couldn't add a comment on the other thread so I add my comment here. But before I provide my argument for the existence of the mind I need to see if we can agree that change exists.

Consul wrote: ↑February 15th, 2023, 4:01 am "The distinction between past, present, and future is only an illusion, however persistent."

(Einstein in a letter to Michelangelo Besso, 21 March 1955)

Many people read this as meaning that Einstein denied the reality of time, Well, he didn't, as Tim Maudlin explains:

https://youtu.be/hC3ckLqsL5M?t=500

Using layman's experiences and understanding of macro concepts and extrapolate them to nano concepts such as the creation of the universe etc, is a fool's errand

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 15th, 2023, 1:23 pm Using layman's experiences and understanding of macro concepts and extrapolate them to nano concepts such as the creation of the universe etc, is a fool's errand

What are the micro-concepts? The act of creation or time?

GE Morton wrote: ↑February 15th, 2023, 12:33 am

Scott wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 11:42 am
Well, time isn't real at all.

That would depend upon the criteria you've adopted for pronouncing something "real."

Indeed, which is why explain that thoroughly in my topic, Neither time, time-ness, unconscious here-ness, unconscious now-ness, nor any unconscious presence exist.

Bahman wrote: ↑February 15th, 2023, 7:58 am

Scott wrote: ↑February 14th, 2023, 6:50 pm I also forgot to mention my even more recent post which also discusses the illusionary nature of time (and by extension the relativity of timeness and the relativity of simultaneity) in my topic, Commentary on self-transcendence, ego death, and dying before you die; with a finger snap more brutal than Thanos

I couldn't add a comment on the other thread so I add my comment here. But before I provide my argument for the existence of the mind I need to see if we can agree that change exists.

Understandable, and fair enough.

I doubt we can agree that change really exists.

That conclusion of mine (that change does not really exist) is included in my argument that neither time nor timeness really exist (without appealing to conscious presences at least) at statement number 44 of 48 in the numbered statements of the argument:

Scott wrote: ↑April 23rd, 2021, 4:32 pm [44] Assuming there is nothing transcendental to the 4D block universe, without objective time, change is incompatible with determinism.
Example: If the Big Bang and the death of the Sun are changing or could change, then determinism is not true.

[Emphasis added.]