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Ajñāna vikṣepa means the practical influence of ignorance due to its long standing. Ajñāna āvaraṇa means the theoretical influence of ignorance, which disappears as soon as the truth is realised. Śaṅkara gave a beautiful example for this concept:- A person is sleeping and saw a tiger in the dream for a long time and was terribly frightened. He somehow woke up and realised that the tiger is not real but false. This realisation is the end of Ajñāna Āvaraṇa. Even though, such realisation was got, still, he was shivering due to the long practical experience of the dream.

Such shivering disappears after a long time only. Not only this, he often says “whenever I remember that dream I shiver”. Hence, getting rid of the theoretical ignorance by realisation is completely different from getting rid of the practical influence of the ignorance. Theory is very easy whereas practice is very very difficult. The soul can never realise this world as practically false by thinking that this world is unreal. The reason for this permanent practical influence is not due to Ajñāna vikṣepa as said in the case of dream tiger, but, the actual reason is that the world is as real as the soul.

Both world and soul are relative realities and God alone is the absolute reality. Hence, world can be practically realised as unreal by God and not by the soul because the soul is a part of the world and is a relative reality like the relatively real world. Therefore, soul is absolute reality in the view of the world and world is absolute reality in the view of the soul. Hence, you shall not say that the world is real because of influence of your practical ignorance, in which case the world should have been actually unreal for you. If you leave the worldly bonds for the sake of God thinking that God is absolutely real and world is relatively real, it does not speak about your real love to God because there is a valid reason for your real love to God.

If God and world are in the same phase of reality and still you love God due to your attraction to the personality of God, such love is real love. Hence, the competition comes between relatively real mediated God and relatively real world (worldly bonds). The competition never comes between absolutely real unimaginable God and relatively real world. The mediated God has all the properties of the worldly medium as any other worldly bond has, which are birth, death, illness, hunger, thirst, sex, sleep etc., and hence, the competition is not based on the point of reality.

Why one should consider oneself as 'soul'(relative) and not as 'God'(absolute)?
Why one should consider oneself as 'Snake' and not as 'Rope'?
What makes one think that one is not 'Rope/God' but 'Snake/soul? Ignorance????????

Viswa_01210 wrote: ↑January 25th, 2023, 2:46 am Why one should consider oneself as 'soul'(relative) and not as 'God'(absolute)?
Why one should consider oneself as 'Snake' and not as 'Rope'?
What makes one think that one is not 'Rope/God' but 'Snake/soul? Ignorance????????

Ignorance may mean many things. When you contrast the characteristics of a snake with that of a rope, and you evaluate the differences between the two, you realize what you are. Your soul is totally different from God. We have been told that God is a supreme being, and he created everything in the world. Your soul is definitely one of his creations, so no amount of ignorance should make you consider yourself as 'God'.

Alex Reeves wrote: ↑January 25th, 2023, 2:45 pm Ignorance may mean many things. When you contrast the characteristics of a snake with that of a rope, and you evaluate the differences between the two, you realize what you are. Your soul is totally different from God. We have been told that God is a supreme being, and he created everything in the world. Your soul is definitely one of his creations, so no amount of ignorance should make you consider yourself as 'God'.

Hi there. Thanks for your reply.
Actually, I was pointing God in Absolute level (i.e. God with No characteristics - Not creator, as no real creation happen but only Imagination/Thoughts moving out of Ignorance) and not in Relative level as you say (i.e. God with characteristics - Creating God - when creation taken into account as real).

This is one of the finest examples of what I call "Orgasm Religion" that I have come across so far.

One encounters it almost every Sunday morning in every Christian church. The sermon discusses moral issues in the context of 1st C Palestine. Never in the context of 21st C real life. Those who think that the requirements of Christian faith are satified by attending church every Sunday morning, provided they don't actually have to modify their lifestyle, feel contented. And so, year on year, church attendance declines. Ministers spend less time in spreading the message of love and forgiveness, more and more in fundraising among the guilty-minded for the church steeple restoration.

Alan Masterman wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2023, 8:25 am One encounters it almost every Sunday morning in every Christian church. The sermon discusses moral issues in the context of 1st C Palestine. Never in the context of 21st C real life.

The cultists — Roman Catholics — who raised me* had (and have) a lot to answer for ... but the sermons we were treated to definitely applied biblical lessons to our modern lives.



* — in the 1950s and 60s.

sri datta wrote: ↑January 4th, 2023, 11:53 pm Ajñāna vikṣepa means the practical influence of ignorance due to its long standing. Ajñāna āvaraṇa means the theoretical influence of ignorance, which disappears as soon as the truth is realised. Śaṅkara gave a beautiful example for this concept:- A person is sleeping and saw a tiger in the dream for a long time and was terribly frightened. He somehow woke up and realised that the tiger is not real but false. This realisation is the end of Ajñāna Āvaraṇa. Even though, such realisation was got, still, he was shivering due to the long practical experience of the dream.

Such shivering disappears after a long time only. Not only this, he often says “whenever I remember that dream I shiver”. Hence, getting rid of the theoretical ignorance by realisation is completely different from getting rid of the practical influence of the ignorance. Theory is very easy whereas practice is very very difficult. The soul can never realise this world as practically false by thinking that this world is unreal. The reason for this permanent practical influence is not due to Ajñāna vikṣepa as said in the case of dream tiger, but, the actual reason is that the world is as real as the soul.

Both world and soul are relative realities and God alone is the absolute reality. Hence, world can be practically realised as unreal by God and not by the soul because the soul is a part of the world and is a relative reality like the relatively real world. Therefore, soul is absolute reality in the view of the world and world is absolute reality in the view of the soul. Hence, you shall not say that the world is real because of influence of your practical ignorance, in which case the world should have been actually unreal for you. If you leave the worldly bonds for the sake of God thinking that God is absolutely real and world is relatively real, it does not speak about your real love to God because there is a valid reason for your real love to God.

If God and world are in the same phase of reality and still you love God due to your attraction to the personality of God, such love is real love. Hence, the competition comes between relatively real mediated God and relatively real world (worldly bonds). The competition never comes between absolutely real unimaginable God and relatively real world. The mediated God has all the properties of the worldly medium as any other worldly bond has, which are birth, death, illness, hunger, thirst, sex, sleep etc., and hence, the competition is not based on the point of reality.

Whould yours believe Atma, if he tells yours that that here is all pretty deluded.

What ever way of relay, defining oneself, is done out of craving. All craving has ignorance at it's root, birth, aging, sickness, death, the whole mass of suffering as it's effect.

Alan Masterman wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2023, 8:25 am This is one of the finest examples of what I call "Orgasm Religion" that I have come across so far.

One encounters it almost every Sunday morning in every Christian church. The sermon discusses moral issues in the context of 1st C Palestine. Never in the context of 21st C real life. Those who think that the requirements of Christian faith are satified by attending church every Sunday morning, provided they don't actually have to modify their lifestyle, feel contented. And so, year on year, church attendance declines. Ministers spend less time in spreading the message of love and forgiveness, more and more in fundraising among the guilty-minded for the church steeple restoration.

This may be just a perception that you make. The church I attended was full of moral teaching from a 21st century context and less from a universal/timeless context. Of course, it used biblical stories to illustrate their point, but it came down to “bourgeois” morality in the end.

I think that the original post was trying to show an understanding of God in a non-dual sense, in which we are all expressions of God, but under the illusion of being separate. I think that it is true, and that Jesus was interpreting his religion from that context, which is normally only found in Advaita Vedanta, but which has many similarities with the sermon on the mount for example.

This isn’t just an old perspective but is the basis of the idealism of Berkley and also the perception of certain physicists who have said that consciousness is the ground of being and one. It has also been promoted by Bernardo Kastrup in his books, and discussed in his videos with Rupert Spira
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQuMzocvmTQ

Alan Masterman wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2023, 8:25 am Ministers spend less time in spreading the message of love and forgiveness, more and more in fundraising among the guilty-minded for the church steeple restoration.

Yes, people everywhere seek ways to give into bribery instead of restrain. Most worthless indeed those who accept, even ask, after having taught what might lead to reduction of ignorance. And where does good householder put his earning into first?