Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sushan]

This topic is about the November 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes




In this book, We discuss about a 'shared consciousness' and being able to see others as one's own self as we are just bodily diverse beings of a common consciousness. Or at least we are the same when we are stripped to the level of our true selves.

Sometimes we sense what others are thinking or going to say. Is it because of the common consciousness that we share or merely because the sense that we gain from practice (getting used to the people that are close to us?

When I further think about the concept (maybe I have thought too much), can we really have a demarcation of myself and others? Is all that I see is me, and all what others see is others, including even me?

[CalebB]

Our physical body limits our 'shared consciouses'. It is the veil that makes us forget why we incarnated, and where we are going after death.
Our bodies are evolving, and as humans evolved ways of communicating physically, we will evolve the means to communicate via our shared consciousness (some call it telepathy).

[Eckhart Aurelius Hughes]

Let's consider two different separate bodies in spacetime: (1) the consciousnesses of 26-year-old Scott versus (2) the consciousnesses of 36-year-old Scott.

Concluding there is a fundamental oneness in the consciousness of these two bodies does not mean the two bodies can read each other's minds. Indeed, since this is 36-year-old Scott writing now, I can assure you that to the best of memory 26-year-old Scott could not read my mind, and likewise I am unable to read 46-year-old Scott's mind.

In analogy, the belief in panpsychism wouldn't mean that all computers are connected to the internet. It wouldn't mean that all computers read the data off other computers.

These ideas also demonstrate the importance of the chapters about "The Two Yous". It's only one of the two yous that is so deeply one with one of the two mes. The other of our two selves are as different and separated from each other as two different computers, neither of which is connected to the internet.

[Sushan]

Our physical body limits our 'shared consciouses'. It is the veil that makes us forget why we incarnated, and where we are going after death.
Our bodies are evolving, and as humans evolved ways of communicating physically, we will evolve the means to communicate via our shared consciousness (some call it telepathy).

Well. If our consciousnesses are shared, when did we actually lost the ability to see the connection to that shared consciousness? We had our minds and bodies all the way long. So what caused the severance of the inter-consciousness connection?

You have spoken about the reincarnation. So for that to happen, does our consciousness merely joins with a common consciousness (like a cloud memory) after we die?

[Sushan]

Let's consider two different separate bodies in spacetime: (1) the consciousnesses of 26-year-old Scott versus (2) the consciousnesses of 36-year-old Scott.

Concluding there is a fundamental oneness in the consciousness of these two bodies does not mean the two bodies can read each other's minds. Indeed, since this is 36-year-old Scott writing now, I can assure you that to the best of memory 26-year-old Scott could not read my mind, and likewise I am unable to read 46-year-old Scott's mind.

In analogy, the belief in panpsychism wouldn't mean that all computers are connected to the internet. It wouldn't mean that all computers read the data off other computers.

These ideas also demonstrate the importance of the chapters about "The Two Yous". It's only one of the two yous that is so deeply one with one of the two mes. The other of our two selves are as different and separated from each other as two different computers, neither of which is connected to the internet.

I read the chapter about "Two Yous", and I agree with what you told about the same self with an age difference. Although we see the connection between the two selves and learn to love our future selves, we cannot formally make a mental connection with our future selves. But my point is, when we expand this idea to all human beings, and think that consciousness is what is left after stripping all the physical and egoic stuff, there cannot be any real boundaries that separate these consciousnesses. In that case we should have the ability (at least in a rudiment form) to see others' minds.

By the way, are you for or against panpsychism ?

[CalebB]

Well. If our consciousnesses are shared, when did we actually lost the ability to see the connection to that shared consciousness? We had our minds and bodies all the way long. So what caused the severance of the inter-consciousness connection?

You have spoken about the reincarnation. So for that to happen, does our consciousness merely joins with a common consciousness (like a cloud memory) after we die?

A cloud memory might be a good way to put it. However, each of us retains our unique identity in the "cloud". Our experiences which we had in the physical body gets stored somehow. So it is not lost when we die.
All the consciousnesses of everyone is not merged together into a single person at death, but each one's thoughts and feelings are then naked and clear to everyone to see.

I'm not sure what exactly caused the severance of the inter-consciousness connection. It may be like a muscle that has not been used in a long time and has atrophied. People have been conditioned with a materialistic worldview for a long time. Therefore their minds are not open to the idea of an inter-consciousness connection, and this prevents them from experiencing it. When a consciousness is "downloaded" from the "cloud", most of the memories of previous lives are not accessible anymore during the life. However, some adepts are able to access the memories through meditation or hypnosis.

[Eckhart Aurelius Hughes]

Let's consider two different separate bodies in spacetime: (1) the consciousnesses of 26-year-old Scott versus (2) the consciousnesses of 36-year-old Scott.

Concluding there is a fundamental oneness in the consciousness of these two bodies does not mean the two bodies can read each other's minds. Indeed, since this is 36-year-old Scott writing now, I can assure you that to the best of memory 26-year-old Scott could not read my mind, and likewise I am unable to read 46-year-old Scott's mind.

In analogy, the belief in panpsychism wouldn't mean that all computers are connected to the internet. It wouldn't mean that all computers read the data off other computers.

I read the chapter about "Two Yous", and I agree with what you told about the same self with an age difference. Although we see the connection between the two selves and learn to love our future selves, we cannot formally make a mental connection with our future selves. But my point is, when we expand this idea to all human beings, and think that consciousness is what is left after stripping all the physical and egoic stuff, there cannot be any real boundaries that separate these consciousnesses. In that case we should have the ability (at least in a rudiment form) to see others' minds.

Space and time are relative and in certain senses don't exist. In a sense, only spaceless timeless spacetime exists.

The logic and argument used to conclude that two conscious human bodies separated by a distance in 4D spacetime is the same and just as valid or invalid when applied to two differently aged versions of Scott versus two differently named humans on Earth in the year 2022.

If your argument was valid and conclusion true, then I (36-year-old Scott) would be able to read 46-year-old Scott's mind and read 26-year-old Scott's mind, even if I suffered from extreme amnesia.

To illustrate, I can invert the time and sapce references in what you wrote above to come up with an argument that uses the same logic is thus just as invalid:

Although we see the connection between the two selves and learn to love other humans in other countries on Earth (i.e. other selves across space), we cannot formally make a mental connection with those other humans in other countries on Earth (i.e. other selves across space). But my point is, when we expand this idea to all human beings, including the older and younger versions of the human we see in the mirror, and think that consciousness is what is left after stripping all the physical and egoic stuff, there cannot be any real boundaries that separate these consciousnesses across time. In that case we should have the ability (at least in a rudiment form) to in the present see the minds of our past and future selves.

I don't think the above argument works, either in your original wording or in the inverted form immediately above.

I think a simple way to see why the argument fails is the analogy (which I gave) if panpsychism was true it wouldn't mean that all computers are connected to the internet. It wouldn't mean that all computers read the data off other computers.

The consciousness of two material minds/brains/bodies/computers can be the same while the minds/brains/bodies/computers are different, seperated by a spacetime interval (i.e. a distance in 4D spacetime), and materially disconnected (i.e. potentially unable to communicate).

[Sushan]

Well. If our consciousnesses are shared, when did we actually lost the ability to see the connection to that shared consciousness? We had our minds and bodies all the way long. So what caused the severance of the inter-consciousness connection?

You have spoken about the reincarnation. So for that to happen, does our consciousness merely joins with a common consciousness (like a cloud memory) after we die?

A cloud memory might be a good way to put it. However, each of us retains our unique identity in the "cloud". Our experiences which we had in the physical body gets stored somehow. So it is not lost when we die.
All the consciousnesses of everyone is not merged together into a single person at death, but each one's thoughts and feelings are then naked and clear to everyone to see.

I'm not sure what exactly caused the severance of the inter-consciousness connection. It may be like a muscle that has not been used in a long time and has atrophied. People have been conditioned with a materialistic worldview for a long time. Therefore their minds are not open to the idea of an inter-consciousness connection, and this prevents them from experiencing it. When a consciousness is "downloaded" from the "cloud", most of the memories of previous lives are not accessible anymore during the life. However, some adepts are able to access the memories through meditation or hypnosis.

I assume that you have mentioned about Buddhist and Brahmin stories related to seeing others' minds and reading them with an enhanced state of mind. Since I am unable to fully understand that enhanced level of a mind (or consciousness) I would like to relate the concept with my initial idea of Cloud Computing.

Yes, we can download the content from the cloud and severe the connection of our PC to the cloud by simply unplugging the network cable. Then we can change that content and the cloud will not see that. If we want to upload it back to the cloud, then we have to reconnect the network cable, and then the cloud will be able to see the changes that we made. But if we physically destroy the computer without connecting it to the cloud, the data will be lost forever.

Similarly, if our minds are downloaded to our bodies and changed through our living, the severed connection has to be reconnected somehow at our deaths to preserve our minds to make the reincarnation a possibility. Seems a bit of fancy work that has to be done by some superior hand

[Sushan]

Let's consider two different separate bodies in spacetime: (1) the consciousnesses of 26-year-old Scott versus (2) the consciousnesses of 36-year-old Scott.

Concluding there is a fundamental oneness in the consciousness of these two bodies does not mean the two bodies can read each other's minds. Indeed, since this is 36-year-old Scott writing now, I can assure you that to the best of memory 26-year-old Scott could not read my mind, and likewise I am unable to read 46-year-old Scott's mind.

In analogy, the belief in panpsychism wouldn't mean that all computers are connected to the internet. It wouldn't mean that all computers read the data off other computers.

I read the chapter about "Two Yous", and I agree with what you told about the same self with an age difference. Although we see the connection between the two selves and learn to love our future selves, we cannot formally make a mental connection with our future selves. But my point is, when we expand this idea to all human beings, and think that consciousness is what is left after stripping all the physical and egoic stuff, there cannot be any real boundaries that separate these consciousnesses. In that case we should have the ability (at least in a rudiment form) to see others' minds.

Space and time are relative and in certain senses don't exist. In a sense, only spaceless timeless spacetime exists.

The logic and argument used to conclude that two conscious human bodies separated by a distance in 4D spacetime is the same and just as valid or invalid when applied to two differently aged versions of Scott versus two differently named humans on Earth in the year 2022.

If your argument was valid and conclusion true, then I (36-year-old Scott) would be able to read 46-year-old Scott's mind and read 26-year-old Scott's mind, even if I suffered from extreme amnesia.

To illustrate, I can invert the time and sapce references in what you wrote above to come up with an argument that uses the same logic is thus just as invalid:

Although we see the connection between the two selves and learn to love other humans in other countries on Earth (i.e. other selves across space), we cannot formally make a mental connection with those other humans in other countries on Earth (i.e. other selves across space). But my point is, when we expand this idea to all human beings, including the older and younger versions of the human we see in the mirror, and think that consciousness is what is left after stripping all the physical and egoic stuff, there cannot be any real boundaries that separate these consciousnesses across time. In that case we should have the ability (at least in a rudiment form) to in the present see the minds of our past and future selves.

I don't think the above argument works, either in your original wording or in the inverted form immediately above.

I think a simple way to see why the argument fails is the analogy (which I gave) if panpsychism was true it wouldn't mean that all computers are connected to the internet. It wouldn't mean that all computers read the data off other computers.

The consciousness of two material minds/brains/bodies/computers can be the same while the minds/brains/bodies/computers are different, seperated by a spacetime interval (i.e. a distance in 4D spacetime), and materially disconnected (i.e. potentially unable to communicate).

I see your point. So what is there to see is the sameness of every living being when stripped of what makes us to appear differently and love everyone because everyone is just as myself. But there is no connection between these similar things other than the expression of love in between the similar souls (a.k.a. consciousnesses)

In other words, when two computers are stripped to the core, both are the same. But that does not necessarily imply that they are connected to the same network and can communicate with each other.

Have I grasped the complete idea?

[CalebB]

Well. If our consciousnesses are shared, when did we actually lost the ability to see the connection to that shared consciousness? We had our minds and bodies all the way long. So what caused the severance of the inter-consciousness connection?

You have spoken about the reincarnation. So for that to happen, does our consciousness merely joins with a common consciousness (like a cloud memory) after we die?

A cloud memory might be a good way to put it. However, each of us retains our unique identity in the "cloud". Our experiences which we had in the physical body gets stored somehow. So it is not lost when we die.
All the consciousnesses of everyone is not merged together into a single person at death, but each one's thoughts and feelings are then naked and clear to everyone to see.

I'm not sure what exactly caused the severance of the inter-consciousness connection. It may be like a muscle that has not been used in a long time and has atrophied. People have been conditioned with a materialistic worldview for a long time. Therefore their minds are not open to the idea of an inter-consciousness connection, and this prevents them from experiencing it. When a consciousness is "downloaded" from the "cloud", most of the memories of previous lives are not accessible anymore during the life. However, some adepts are able to access the memories through meditation or hypnosis.

I assume that you have mentioned about Buddhist and Brahmin stories related to seeing others' minds and reading them with an enhanced state of mind. Since I am unable to fully understand that enhanced level of a mind (or consciousness) I would like to relate the concept with my initial idea of Cloud Computing.

Yes, we can download the content from the cloud and severe the connection of our PC to the cloud by simply unplugging the network cable. Then we can change that content and the cloud will not see that. If we want to upload it back to the cloud, then we have to reconnect the network cable, and then the cloud will be able to see the changes that we made. But if we physically destroy the computer without connecting it to the cloud, the data will be lost forever.

Similarly, if our minds are downloaded to our bodies and changed through our living, the severed connection has to be reconnected somehow at our deaths to preserve our minds to make the reincarnation a possibility. Seems a bit of fancy work that has to be done by some superior hand

We may also sever the connection of our PC to the cloud by disabling a Wi-Fi connection. Yes, but in your example, the PC is disconnected for a while. In my understanding, the connection is not severed in that way when our minds are downloaded to our bodies. It is continuously uploading data to the cloud in real-time. Consider a gamer who is playing online. He may experience a network issue and disconnect from the server. However, when he logs back on, his progress is preserved because the server was updating his data as he was playing.
All of this is happening in what IT guys call the back end. It is not visible to the user in the same way that your soul's progression is not visible to you while you're living.
I think that any discussion about the details of consciousness is going to sound like fancy work.
If you destroy a PC, it doesn't destroy the Wi-Fi signal as well. In the case of our bodies, when they die, the "signal" of our consciousness continues, but the non-defining traits are destroyed.

[CalebB]

Let's consider two different separate bodies in spacetime: (1) the consciousnesses of 26-year-old Scott versus (2) the consciousnesses of 36-year-old Scott.

Concluding there is a fundamental oneness in the consciousness of these two bodies does not mean the two bodies can read each other's minds. Indeed, since this is 36-year-old Scott writing now, I can assure you that to the best of memory 26-year-old Scott could not read my mind, and likewise I am unable to read 46-year-old Scott's mind.

In analogy, the belief in panpsychism wouldn't mean that all computers are connected to the internet. It wouldn't mean that all computers read the data off other computers.

I read the chapter about "Two Yous", and I agree with what you told about the same self with an age difference. Although we see the connection between the two selves and learn to love our future selves, we cannot formally make a mental connection with our future selves. But my point is, when we expand this idea to all human beings, and think that consciousness is what is left after stripping all the physical and egoic stuff, there cannot be any real boundaries that separate these consciousnesses. In that case we should have the ability (at least in a rudiment form) to see others' minds.

Space and time are relative and in certain senses don't exist. In a sense, only spaceless timeless spacetime exists.

The logic and argument used to conclude that two conscious human bodies separated by a distance in 4D spacetime is the same and just as valid or invalid when applied to two differently aged versions of Scott versus two differently named humans on Earth in the year 2022.

If your argument was valid and conclusion true, then I (36-year-old Scott) would be able to read 46-year-old Scott's mind and read 26-year-old Scott's mind, even if I suffered from extreme amnesia.

To illustrate, I can invert the time and sapce references in what you wrote above to come up with an argument that uses the same logic is thus just as invalid:

Although we see the connection between the two selves and learn to love other humans in other countries on Earth (i.e. other selves across space), we cannot formally make a mental connection with those other humans in other countries on Earth (i.e. other selves across space). But my point is, when we expand this idea to all human beings, including the older and younger versions of the human we see in the mirror, and think that consciousness is what is left after stripping all the physical and egoic stuff, there cannot be any real boundaries that separate these consciousnesses across time. In that case we should have the ability (at least in a rudiment form) to in the present see the minds of our past and future selves.

I don't think the above argument works, either in your original wording or in the inverted form immediately above.

I think a simple way to see why the argument fails is the analogy (which I gave) if panpsychism was true it wouldn't mean that all computers are connected to the internet. It wouldn't mean that all computers read the data off other computers.

The consciousness of two material minds/brains/bodies/computers can be the same while the minds/brains/bodies/computers are different, seperated by a spacetime interval (i.e. a distance in 4D spacetime), and materially disconnected (i.e. potentially unable to communicate).

I agree with this argument. Just because the consciousness of two minds/brains/bodies/computers are the same, it doesn't necessarily mean that the minds/brains/bodies/computers are the same or are able to read other's minds.

[Sushan]

Well. If our consciousnesses are shared, when did we actually lost the ability to see the connection to that shared consciousness? We had our minds and bodies all the way long. So what caused the severance of the inter-consciousness connection?

You have spoken about the reincarnation. So for that to happen, does our consciousness merely joins with a common consciousness (like a cloud memory) after we die?

A cloud memory might be a good way to put it. However, each of us retains our unique identity in the "cloud". Our experiences which we had in the physical body gets stored somehow. So it is not lost when we die.
All the consciousnesses of everyone is not merged together into a single person at death, but each one's thoughts and feelings are then naked and clear to everyone to see.

I'm not sure what exactly caused the severance of the inter-consciousness connection. It may be like a muscle that has not been used in a long time and has atrophied. People have been conditioned with a materialistic worldview for a long time. Therefore their minds are not open to the idea of an inter-consciousness connection, and this prevents them from experiencing it. When a consciousness is "downloaded" from the "cloud", most of the memories of previous lives are not accessible anymore during the life. However, some adepts are able to access the memories through meditation or hypnosis.

I assume that you have mentioned about Buddhist and Brahmin stories related to seeing others' minds and reading them with an enhanced state of mind. Since I am unable to fully understand that enhanced level of a mind (or consciousness) I would like to relate the concept with my initial idea of Cloud Computing.

Yes, we can download the content from the cloud and severe the connection of our PC to the cloud by simply unplugging the network cable. Then we can change that content and the cloud will not see that. If we want to upload it back to the cloud, then we have to reconnect the network cable, and then the cloud will be able to see the changes that we made. But if we physically destroy the computer without connecting it to the cloud, the data will be lost forever.

Similarly, if our minds are downloaded to our bodies and changed through our living, the severed connection has to be reconnected somehow at our deaths to preserve our minds to make the reincarnation a possibility. Seems a bit of fancy work that has to be done by some superior hand

We may also sever the connection of our PC to the cloud by disabling a Wi-Fi connection. Yes, but in your example, the PC is disconnected for a while. In my understanding, the connection is not severed in that way when our minds are downloaded to our bodies. It is continuously uploading data to the cloud in real-time. Consider a gamer who is playing online. He may experience a network issue and disconnect from the server. However, when he logs back on, his progress is preserved because the server was updating his data as he was playing.
All of this is happening in what IT guys call the back end. It is not visible to the user in the same way that your soul's progression is not visible to you while you're living.
I think that any discussion about the details of consciousness is going to sound like fancy work.
If you destroy a PC, it doesn't destroy the Wi-Fi signal as well. In the case of our bodies, when they die, the "signal" of our consciousness continues, but the non-defining traits are destroyed.

When data is uploaded to a server, a temporary loss of connection will not cause loosing any uploaded data. But if you happen to do any changes while you are offline, and if the computer is destroyed before the connection is re-established, then there is no way to recover that changes you made. So, in the same manner, it is necessary to have a continous connection to the 'spiritual cloud' to prevent any loss in our spirits. The comparison may not be the same, or it may not address all the points. But I think the resemblance is enough for the discussion.

[Sushan]

Let's consider two different separate bodies in spacetime: (1) the consciousnesses of 26-year-old Scott versus (2) the consciousnesses of 36-year-old Scott.

Concluding there is a fundamental oneness in the consciousness of these two bodies does not mean the two bodies can read each other's minds. Indeed, since this is 36-year-old Scott writing now, I can assure you that to the best of memory 26-year-old Scott could not read my mind, and likewise I am unable to read 46-year-old Scott's mind.

In analogy, the belief in panpsychism wouldn't mean that all computers are connected to the internet. It wouldn't mean that all computers read the data off other computers.

I read the chapter about "Two Yous", and I agree with what you told about the same self with an age difference. Although we see the connection between the two selves and learn to love our future selves, we cannot formally make a mental connection with our future selves. But my point is, when we expand this idea to all human beings, and think that consciousness is what is left after stripping all the physical and egoic stuff, there cannot be any real boundaries that separate these consciousnesses. In that case we should have the ability (at least in a rudiment form) to see others' minds.

Space and time are relative and in certain senses don't exist. In a sense, only spaceless timeless spacetime exists.

The logic and argument used to conclude that two conscious human bodies separated by a distance in 4D spacetime is the same and just as valid or invalid when applied to two differently aged versions of Scott versus two differently named humans on Earth in the year 2022.

If your argument was valid and conclusion true, then I (36-year-old Scott) would be able to read 46-year-old Scott's mind and read 26-year-old Scott's mind, even if I suffered from extreme amnesia.

To illustrate, I can invert the time and sapce references in what you wrote above to come up with an argument that uses the same logic is thus just as invalid:

Although we see the connection between the two selves and learn to love other humans in other countries on Earth (i.e. other selves across space), we cannot formally make a mental connection with those other humans in other countries on Earth (i.e. other selves across space). But my point is, when we expand this idea to all human beings, including the older and younger versions of the human we see in the mirror, and think that consciousness is what is left after stripping all the physical and egoic stuff, there cannot be any real boundaries that separate these consciousnesses across time. In that case we should have the ability (at least in a rudiment form) to in the present see the minds of our past and future selves.

I don't think the above argument works, either in your original wording or in the inverted form immediately above.

I think a simple way to see why the argument fails is the analogy (which I gave) if panpsychism was true it wouldn't mean that all computers are connected to the internet. It wouldn't mean that all computers read the data off other computers.

The consciousness of two material minds/brains/bodies/computers can be the same while the minds/brains/bodies/computers are different, seperated by a spacetime interval (i.e. a distance in 4D spacetime), and materially disconnected (i.e. potentially unable to communicate).

I agree with this argument. Just because the consciousness of two minds/brains/bodies/computers are the same, it doesn't necessarily mean that the minds/brains/bodies/computers are the same or are able to read other's minds.

I think being similar and being disconnected are two different things. If you strip a computer to its very core, you will see only 1 & 0 s. But unless you connect the two computers they cannot communicate with each other although they are same at their cores.

Similarly all humans are same when we are stripped out of the outer coating that we wear. But we do not have any inter-mind relationship or connection since we do not have such a thing physically or spiritually. What we have to do is keep the similarity in mind and love every human being because they are us and we are them.

[Jennifer Benitez 1]

The problem resides next to critical thinking, because one could never know what's in another's mind. If you were more social, the anatomy would be aggressive and that serves to reinforce that we are prone to our own relatives besides our surroundings.

[Sushan]

The problem resides next to critical thinking, because one could never know what's in another's mind. If you were more social, the anatomy would be aggressive and that serves to reinforce that we are prone to our own relatives besides our surroundings.

I am sorry but I did not completely get your idea. Yes, we do not possess the ability to see others' minds. But as we are close to people we get the ability to predict their minds more accurately. And some times this can be done with practice, as what happens in chess.