Philosophy Discussion Forums

If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?

We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?

We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.

To assign a number value, we must first have something to assign it to. If the thing we try to assign it to if non-existent, the assignment will fail. Non-existent things don't exist, and so their attributes cannot exist as they can't have any. And so on.

As for E = mc^2, if m is zero, E is zero, and this says nothing at all about c, one way or the other. If time is stopped (as opposed to 'stuck' at zero), then there can be no velocity, and c is meaningless.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "zero-t".

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 11:22 am

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?

We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.

To assign a number value, we must first have something to assign it to. If the thing we try to assign it to if non-existent, the assignment will fail. Non-existent things don't exist, and so their attributes cannot exist as they can't have any. And so on.

As for E = mc^2, if m is zero, E is zero, and this says nothing at all about c, one way or the other. If time is stopped (as opposed to 'stuck' at zero), then there can be no velocity, and c is meaningless.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "zero-t".

Thanks for the reply and clearing up some questions.

By zero-t I refer to the cosmological notion as "before" the big bang. What can we expect in how c will behave in zero-t? if there is no matter or energy as well as no space, would c not be different in that it is not hampered to a finite value in the absence of E and m?

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 11:36 am

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 11:22 am

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?

We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.

To assign a number value, we must first have something to assign it to. If the thing we try to assign it to if non-existent, the assignment will fail. Non-existent things don't exist, and so their attributes cannot exist as they can't have any. And so on.

As for E = mc^2, if m is zero, E is zero, and this says nothing at all about c, one way or the other. If time is stopped (as opposed to 'stuck' at zero), then there can be no velocity, and c is meaningless.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "zero-t".

Thanks for the reply and clearing up some questions.

By zero-t I refer to the cosmological notion as "before" the big bang. What can we expect in how c will behave in zero-t? if there is no matter or energy as well as no space, would c not be different in that it is not hampered to a finite value in the absence of E and m?

If there is no matter or energy as well as no space, then c is meaningless. Without 'space', there is no physical volume, so there can be no movement (velocity) within that non-existent 'space', so c is undefined.

If zero-t is 'before time', then all bets are off. What would that even mean?

To pattern chaser in reply to your last post.

Thanks for the reply.

I guess the next logical question is, was there something other than E and m in zero-t? We stated that non-existence cannot have number values assigned. So if we assign zero to t, c, m, and E, that means we're dealing with existential physics, denoting existance pardoxes in that zero means these elements must exist since we've assigned values to them, albeit in different states or essence.

Lastly, would abstract objects and possibility spaces exist in zero-t? If so, is consciousness also an abstract object or relating to abstract objects? Can existence in itself be an abstract object.

Hello Whitedragon, Pattern.
I am getting hold of the idea by constructing a Euclidian box with the spacetime dimension z.
Axiom. Two objects cannot occupy the same space.
Objects are represented in the box as having mass and, in this box, massless objects do not exist. I might use my imagination with this primitive idea and insert at 0,0,0 a point called the Higgs. Massless particles will jet into the box by gaining mass at 0 0 0. Atoms, elements, compounds and finally visible to Physicalism as objects. I want to also create the limbo dimension to account for the timeline of particle combination. That is: there is a historical account but no mass. In this manner we call the limbo a virtual manifold. Next (why not) construct a box for all perceivable objects and reason about its contents. From a virtual manifold to a Euclidian box.

The Beast wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 2:24 pm Hello Whitedragon, Pattern.
I am getting hold of the idea by constructing a Euclidian box with the spacetime dimension z.
Axiom. Two objects cannot occupy the same space.
Objects are represented in the box as having mass and, in this box, massless objects do not exist. I might use my imagination with this primitive idea and insert at 0,0,0 a point called the Higgs. Massless particles will jet into the box by gaining mass at 0 0 0. Atoms, elements, compounds and finally visible to Physicalism as objects. I want to also create the limbo dimension to account for the timeline of particle combination. That is: there is a historical account but no mass. In this manner we call the limbo a virtual manifold. Next (why not) construct a box for all perceivable objects and reason about its contents. From a virtual manifold to a Euclidian box.

Can we create a universe?

Can we create a universe?

Sure. If there is enough love.

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?

We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.

We should not assign anything to nonexistent things, to be fair—not just numbers. Not even the words "nonexistent". For us to perceive them is to stay unloyal to their nonexistence. But it's our nature, so we can't help it!

GrayArea wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 4:53 pm

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?

We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.

We should not assign anything to nonexistent things, to be fair—not just numbers. Not even the words "nonexistent". For us to perceive them is to stay unloyal to their nonexistence. But it's our nature, so we can't help it!

Thanks for the reply,

I agree that we cannot assign number values. I also agree that we should not assign the word non-existence to it.

If we can think of something that was non-existent, example m and E in zeto-t as a cosmological state, does that mean that we measure existence from two different temporal states, in that zero m and E denotes some form of existence or zero t? If not, why do we assign these values?

The Beast wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 4:18 pm

Can we create a universe?

Sure. If there is enough love.

Thanks, a quaint answer, holding much truth.

I follow Sabine Hossenfelder, I'm hoping to get my hands on her new book, Existential physics, dealing with existence. The You tube videos give insight into some of the contents. The title is reminiscent to the papers I've been working on.

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 27th, 2022, 3:53 am

GrayArea wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 4:53 pm

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?

We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.

We should not assign anything to nonexistent things, to be fair—not just numbers. Not even the words "nonexistent". For us to perceive them is to stay unloyal to their nonexistence. But it's our nature, so we can't help it!

Thanks for the reply,

I agree that we cannot assign number values. I also agree that we should not assign the word non-existence to it.

If we can think of something that was non-existent, example m and E in zeto-t as a cosmological state, does that mean that we measure existence from two different temporal states, in that zero m and E denotes some form of existence or zero t? If not, why do we assign these values?

Because we have to first recognize them before regarding them as "nonexistent". The value assignment is something that just comes naturally during this process I assume. Then again, if we truly wanted to grasp something nonexistent, we might as well not try to grasp it to begin with....

Perhaps there is still much to be answered, but this is what I think so far.

To Greyarea

Thanks,

Can we then say that m and E do exist in zero-t, but in or as a diffrent state or as something else?

Sabine Hossenfelder says that energy and matter form out of nothing as a universe expands, this is curious. I'm willing to entertain ideas of how nothing, if it is nothing, spawns something.

I'm also curious to know of c and space folding relating to causal geomitry that seem to produce similar states of existential paradoxes in that one thing can exist to itself but to nothing else that is not at the same c speed or causal geometry space folding.

- c as a constant is in question atm and scientists are re-investigating VSL that relates to Einstein's earlier papers.

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from assigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?

We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 11:22 am To assign a number value, we must first have something to assign it to. If the thing we try to assign it to if non-existent, the assignment will fail. Non-existent things don't exist, and so their attributes cannot exist as they can't have any. And so on.

As for E = mc^2, if m is zero, E is zero, and this says nothing at all about c, one way or the other. If time is stopped (as opposed to 'stuck' at zero), then there can be no velocity, and c is meaningless.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "zero-t".

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 11:36 am By zero-t I refer to the cosmological notion as "before" the big bang. What can we expect in how c will behave in zero-t? if there is no matter or energy as well as no space, would c not be different in that it is not hampered to a finite value in the absence of E and m?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 12:57 pm If there is no matter or energy as well as no space, then c is meaningless. Without 'space', there is no physical volume, so there can be no movement (velocity) within that non-existent 'space', so c is undefined.

If zero-t is 'before time', then all bets are off. What would that even mean?

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 1:19 pm I guess the next logical question is, was there something other than E and m in zero-t? We stated that non-existence cannot have number values assigned. So if we assign zero to t, c, m, and E, that means we're dealing with existential physics, denoting existance pardoxes in that zero means these elements must exist since we've assigned values to them, albeit in different states or essence.

Lastly, would abstract objects and possibility spaces exist in zero-t? If so, is consciousness also an abstract object or relating to abstract objects? Can existence in itself be an abstract object.

Einsteinian physics prefers to look at things in the universe as spacetime entities. I.e. they have three physical dimensions — length, breadth, and height — and one time dimension. Your "zero-t" thought-experiment removes the time dimension entirely; time is non-existent.

So the three physical dimensions might still exist (?), but the lack of time causes some significant changes in the way our imagined universe works. Because there cannot be a sequence of events of any sort — there is no time to separate the events — all events will happen simultaneously, or they won't happen at all. Or am I stopping too soon in this chain of reasoning? Can an 'event' actually 'happen' in a timeless universe? After all, an 'event' conventionally occurs at a fixed and given point in time?

This universe is static. There can be no change, no dynamic process of any sort. Whatever state this universe is created in, is retained. I wanted to say "retained forever", but of course that would be meaningless, as "forever" is a direct reference to time, which doesn't exist here. As I said: "significant changes".

You ask if there could be "something other than" E and m in zero-t? What sort of 'something' do you think there might/could be? Energy and mass have no time component, so they can presumably exist in this strange pretend-universe. The physical dimensions still seem to exist, we imagine. So are you wondering about something physical, that might exist alongside E and m, or something else?

Finally, you refer to paradoxes, but I think a better description might be "errors". The contradictions you note might well be consequences of an initial assumption that was badly mistaken, and not a paradox at all.

Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 1:19 pm We stated that non-existence cannot have number values assigned. So if we assign zero to t, c, m, and E...

Zero is a number...