Philosophy Discussion Forums

This topic is about the July 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Truth Is Beyond Belief!: Some thoughts to make you think about the power of your thoughts…by Jerry Durr

"The One, when viewed from below, appears to be the many. The many, when viewed from above, is seen to be The One."

This “lofty” perspective has, to this day, inspired me to explore the power and role of the human mind with its magical ability to so seamlessly impose its own subjective, separating beliefs overtop an objective, unified reality - Existence Itself.

(Location 24 - Kindle version)

This author highlights the ability of our mind to form subjective and controversial ideas not only about vague facts and theories, but also regarding obvious and clearly proven points (e.g. Flat-earth believers). It is okay for anyone to have any personal opinion, but people often tend to argue and quarrel upon such facts.

Thinking about this, I got the idea that there will be no more arguments if we do not let our minds to act on their own. What do you say?

Sushan wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 6:43 am ...I got the idea that there will be no more arguments if we do not let our minds to act on their own. What do you say?

You seem to recommend that we stop thinking, then we won't think incorrectly. I think this is an ... unusual solution to the problem of human ignorance and/or stupidity.

Sushan wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 6:43 am Thinking about this, I got the idea that there will be no more arguments if we do not let our minds to act on their own. What do you say?

My brain cannot create a consistent meaning of "if we do not let our minds to act on their own". Maybe it's because this expression presupposes a personal self as master of the mind? But to me it appears that the sense of self cannot be separated from the sense of there being a "mind" or a "consciousness".

Maybe it is the case that the title you have chosen reflects more clearly (for my brain) what you are after

Sushan wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 6:43 am No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

I agree because if there were no mind there wouldn't be a sense of self either. However that doesn't appear to be a relevant idea or a relevant idea only for some kinds of buddhist extremists only.
Some type of psychotherapy takes a more moderate and workable approach in that it treats compulsive harmful thinking with teaching to let go of thoughts and/or to principally hold thoughts only loosely, reduce the tightness of the bonding between self and thought.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 7:37 am

Sushan wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 6:43 am ...I got the idea that there will be no more arguments if we do not let our minds to act on their own. What do you say?

You seem to recommend that we stop thinking, then we won't think incorrectly. I think this is an ... unusual solution to the problem of human ignorance and/or stupidity.

Well, it is a solution in its own way. We make mistakes when we do things. If we do not do anything, then there will not be any mistakes. And I think that applies to thinking as well.

Rocks indeed seem to have no issues, but they don't seem to have fun either.

stevie wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 9:03 am

Sushan wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 6:43 am Thinking about this, I got the idea that there will be no more arguments if we do not let our minds to act on their own. What do you say?

My brain cannot create a consistent meaning of "if we do not let our minds to act on their own". Maybe it's because this expression presupposes a personal self as master of the mind? But to me it appears that the sense of self cannot be separated from the sense of there being a "mind" or a "consciousness".

Maybe it is the case that the title you have chosen reflects more clearly (for my brain) what you are after

Sushan wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 6:43 am No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

I agree because if there were no mind there wouldn't be a sense of self either. However that doesn't appear to be a relevant idea or a relevant idea only for some kinds of buddhist extremists only.
Some type of psychotherapy takes a more moderate and workable approach in that it treats compulsive harmful thinking with teaching to let go of thoughts and/or to principally hold thoughts only loosely, reduce the tightness of the bonding between self and thought.

I do not think there are extremist teachings in Buddhism. There are teachings in buddhism which can be categorized in various levels, and only the ones who follow in a certain path and develop certain abilities (when we train our minds for some time through things like meditation, certain areas of brain are awakened). Yes, there are teachings that teach one to detach the mind from the bodily feelings.

But here I think it is more about controlling our minds. Usually we do not have a control over our minds. We can control the actions that occur as a result of the processes in our minds. And in psychotherapy this concept is used to treat illnesses like OCD.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:04 pm Rocks indeed seem to have no issues, but they don't seem to have fun either.

Rocks just lay on the ground. We can take them to our hands (the small ones) and throw them. Since they are lifeless and mindless, the throwing or the hitting on the ground does not affect them. So, if you are a rock, yes, you may not have any fun, but you will not have any issues as well.

Sushan wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:07 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:04 pm Rocks indeed seem to have no issues, but they don't seem to have fun either.

Rocks just lay on the ground. We can take them to our hands (the small ones) and throw them. Since they are lifeless and mindless, the throwing or the hitting on the ground does not affect them. So, if you are a rock, yes, you may not have any fun, but you will not have any issues as well.

Swings and roundabouts :)

Anyway, we have plenty of time to live like rocks, but only a number of decades (hopefully) to be a human animal, with its various perks and troubles.

Sushan wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:04 pm

stevie wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 9:03 am

Sushan wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 6:43 am Thinking about this, I got the idea that there will be no more arguments if we do not let our minds to act on their own. What do you say?

My brain cannot create a consistent meaning of "if we do not let our minds to act on their own". Maybe it's because this expression presupposes a personal self as master of the mind? But to me it appears that the sense of self cannot be separated from the sense of there being a "mind" or a "consciousness".

Maybe it is the case that the title you have chosen reflects more clearly (for my brain) what you are after

Sushan wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 6:43 am No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

I agree because if there were no mind there wouldn't be a sense of self either. However that doesn't appear to be a relevant idea or a relevant idea only for some kinds of buddhist extremists only.
Some type of psychotherapy takes a more moderate and workable approach in that it treats compulsive harmful thinking with teaching to let go of thoughts and/or to principally hold thoughts only loosely, reduce the tightness of the bonding between self and thought.

I do not think there are extremist teachings in Buddhism. There are teachings in buddhism which can be categorized in various levels, and only the ones who follow in a certain path and develop certain abilities (when we train our minds for some time through things like meditation, certain areas of brain are awakened). Yes, there are teachings that teach one to detach the mind from the bodily feelings.

I've been saying "buddhist extremists" so I've been referring to persons.

Sushan wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:04 pm Usually we do not have a control over our minds.

Replacing "usually" by "generally" I'd agree because using eliminative materialism as a working hypothesis the self having control about anything is merely a useful illusion. I've said "working hypothesis" so there is no claim as to truth or reality involved.

I totaly agree. Today i thought to myself, when I was working. IF i am thinking about what if i die, all i will be and was is like I think of those who i knew and died. They lived and porly end their lives like cancer itd... So if I finish like this its all i will be for others thoughts will be "poor he got ill and died". But then comes to my mind I can think of this only I so im alive right now when I think at this, when i will die it will be impossible to think at this. SO the coonclusion it has any point to think what the world thinks and have problems. BUT is unavoidable. Its irilevant to have thougst yet we can't live withouth them. Or on a positve when we live life is beautiful, when we die it doesnt matter.

In answer to the original post statement.

We do have a mind and we do have thoughts and we do have issues though,that is normal.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:22 pm

Sushan wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:07 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:04 pm Rocks indeed seem to have no issues, but they don't seem to have fun either.

Rocks just lay on the ground. We can take them to our hands (the small ones) and throw them. Since they are lifeless and mindless, the throwing or the hitting on the ground does not affect them. So, if you are a rock, yes, you may not have any fun, but you will not have any issues as well.

Swings and roundabouts

Anyway, we have plenty of time to live like rocks, but only a number of decades (hopefully) to be a human animal, with its various perks and troubles.

Ye, we do have time to live (or be) like rocks. After dying we inevitably be like rocks. But when we live (or try to do so) we receive various perks as well as troubles. Some people choose to live this time which we get to live as a human animal away from other humans, and it is simply to have less troubles. And I think that too actually helps them to be with less troubles since then they only have to deal with their own minds.

stevie wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 11:50 pm

Sushan wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:04 pm

stevie wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 9:03 am

Sushan wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 6:43 am Thinking about this, I got the idea that there will be no more arguments if we do not let our minds to act on their own. What do you say?

My brain cannot create a consistent meaning of "if we do not let our minds to act on their own". Maybe it's because this expression presupposes a personal self as master of the mind? But to me it appears that the sense of self cannot be separated from the sense of there being a "mind" or a "consciousness".

Maybe it is the case that the title you have chosen reflects more clearly (for my brain) what you are after

Sushan wrote: ↑July 9th, 2022, 6:43 am No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

I agree because if there were no mind there wouldn't be a sense of self either. However that doesn't appear to be a relevant idea or a relevant idea only for some kinds of buddhist extremists only.
Some type of psychotherapy takes a more moderate and workable approach in that it treats compulsive harmful thinking with teaching to let go of thoughts and/or to principally hold thoughts only loosely, reduce the tightness of the bonding between self and thought.

I do not think there are extremist teachings in Buddhism. There are teachings in buddhism which can be categorized in various levels, and only the ones who follow in a certain path and develop certain abilities (when we train our minds for some time through things like meditation, certain areas of brain are awakened). Yes, there are teachings that teach one to detach the mind from the bodily feelings.

I've been saying "buddhist extremists" so I've been referring to persons.

Sushan wrote: ↑July 14th, 2022, 10:04 pm Usually we do not have a control over our minds.

Replacing "usually" by "generally" I'd agree because using eliminative materialism as a working hypothesis the self having control about anything is merely a useful illusion. I've said "working hypothesis" so there is no claim as to truth or reality involved.

There are extremists in any cult, religion, etc. And sometimes what they believe or say can be the truth.

Eliminative materialism (or eliminativism) is the radical claim that our ordinary, common-sense understanding of the mind is deeply wrong and that some or all of the mental states posited by common-sense do not actually exist and have no role to play in a mature science of the mind. - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy -

I get eliminative materialism as a sort of understanding, rather than a claim on control.

Rende wrote: ↑July 22nd, 2022, 5:05 pm I totaly agree. Today i thought to myself, when I was working. IF i am thinking about what if i die, all i will be and was is like I think of those who i knew and died. They lived and porly end their lives like cancer itd... So if I finish like this its all i will be for others thoughts will be "poor he got ill and died". But then comes to my mind I can think of this only I so im alive right now when I think at this, when i will die it will be impossible to think at this. SO the coonclusion it has any point to think what the world thinks and have problems. BUT is unavoidable. Its irilevant to have thougst yet we can't live withouth them. Or on a positve when we live life is beautiful, when we die it doesnt matter.

Thinking too much brings trouble almost always. Think of a soldier who merely obeys his orders with no thinking at all. Either he succeeds or he dies, and nothing more. It is true that it is not a way to live, yet you can be trouble free.

Joshua10 wrote: ↑July 24th, 2022, 1:20 pm In answer to the original post statement.

We do have a mind and we do have thoughts and we do have issues though,that is normal.

Ues, that is the norm. But how many of us simply accept that norm? Have you never had the feeling "it is good to die than live like this" after thinking about your troublesome life? I have got the feeling, and when I think about such occasions later, I realize that the issue becomes (or appears) bigger with our thinking. If we do not think the issue will still be there, but in its original size.