Philosophy Discussion Forums

I do like the 'Chat about anything your heart desires here, just be civil.' Very encouraging! I may at some point venture on to the serious 'philosophy forums proper', but many of my interests lie outside of the strictly constrained 'philosophical silos', I see there is a need to exchange and share information. I am hoping the 'PDF' (Philosophy Discussion Forums) regulars can assist me with my problem.. what appears to be the search limitations of these forums, namely that I have tried to find references to H.G. Wells but all the search results find are 'wells' (water wells, gravity wells etc) or even just well without the 's', also no option to search on 'Match Case = Capitals' to return Wells. Also elsewhere such as searching on Google should I use 'H.G. Wells', 'H. G. Wells' or 'HG Wells' etc? Anyway the reason I ask will become clear (I hope!). Have there been many discussions on the forums relating to H.G. Wells, if so please could someone provide a link or links? Are there any 'Wellsians' here by chance?

I have studied H.G. Wells, I think of him as a man of significant importance to our future (along with, to a lesser degree Gene Roddenberry) the future of humanity. I believe we must progress to a 'higher state' or face decline and eventually extinction. H. G. Wells thought the same, he spent much of his life promoting the idea of a 'World State' or 'World Government'. His last book, The Happy Turning: A Dream of Life and Mind at the End of its Tether deals with death, apocalypse, mortality, also with “human insufficiency. Basically we need to 'up our game' or face oblivion!

I have found an interesting discussion, on a thread entitled - Isn't the problem with people a lack of intelligence?

Sy Borg wrote:
"Human intelligence is distributed on a Bell Curve so there are as many in the lower percentiles as in the higher ones. They all have an equal vote, even though a significant number have no hope of understanding the issues and usually seem to rely on Rupert Murdoch's outlets to tell them what's going on."'

and continues..
"I have previously presented the possibility of an eventual species split of humanity as technology-enabled wealthy people develop more quickly than the poor. However, it was not a popular prediction."'

I endorse that prediction! My favourite fictional 'story' (ie not factual) is The Time Machine, the Eloi and the Morlocks, are they not our future to come!?

So, maybe we could have a discussion on World Government our future? I would be happy to use my expanding compendium/database of HGW information, his life, beliefs, visions, predictions etc to further the cause of seeking a better future for us all. I have tried to find others that share my personal vision (based on HGW's) my developing framework of thought for our future, even amongst academics and scholars at the H. G. Wells Society, unfortunately they are more concerned with his literary output, his 'utopian socialist' political views do not feature highly and the members have no ambitions to change the world (similar to the Fabian Society in which HGW was involved). It's a case of as with the famous Karl Marx quote "“The philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways, the point, however, is to change it.”

Your thoughts?

Recommended reading for background information - search Google for 'Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy World Government'

Roobaba wrote: ↑January 6th, 2022, 9:13 pmI have found an interesting discussion, on a thread entitled - Isn't the problem with people a lack of intelligence?

Sy Borg wrote:
"Human intelligence is distributed on a Bell Curve so there are as many in the lower percentiles as in the higher ones. They all have an equal vote, even though a significant number have no hope of understanding the issues and usually seem to rely on Rupert Murdoch's outlets to tell them what's going on."'

and continues..
"I have previously presented the possibility of an eventual species split of humanity as technology-enabled wealthy people develop more quickly than the poor. However, it was not a popular prediction."'

I endorse that prediction! My favourite fictional 'story' (ie not factual) is The Time Machine, the Eloi and the Morlocks, are they not our future to come!?

So, maybe we could have a discussion on World Government our future? I would be happy to use my expanding compendium/database of HGW information, his life, beliefs, visions, predictions etc to further the cause of seeking a better future for us all. I have tried to find others that share my personal vision (based on HGW's) my developing framework of thought for our future, even amongst academics and scholars at the H. G. Wells Society, unfortunately they are more concerned with his literary output, his 'utopian socialist' political views do not feature highly and the members have no ambitions to change the world (similar to the Fabian Society in which HGW was involved). It's a case of as with the famous Karl Marx quote "“The philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways, the point, however, is to change it.”

Your thoughts?

Thanks. I enjoy chats about the future.

As far as I can tell, understanding and interpreting reality is a full-time job in itself, let alone concocting solutions. In a pluralist society, some can explore interpretations and others can explore leverage points within those ideas that can be used to effect change.

The appearance and nature of Wells's Morlocks and Eloi reflected what Wells perceived to be their respective spirits, rather than something derived from natural selection. So the souls of the Morlocks - the wealthy - was ugly, greedy and brutish while those of the Eloi - ordinary people - were innocent and gentle.

Wells's idealism aside, a technologically advanced species can shield many of their their members from environmental dangers. Thus, there is less benefit from hairiness or thick skin, for instance. By contrast, a group living wild in the environment would tend to be shorter and more robust, hairier, thicker-skinned and more physically robust. Harsh environments soon weed out the soft and vulnerable.

My best guess is that, rather than a coordinated world government, the world will sort itself out into competing monolithic high-tech city states for VIPs surrounded by rings of ever thinning slums leading out to desert lands. Feudal. Due to variant histories and climatic and geological conditions, any rule made by a World Government will benefit some and not others; it would be impossible to coordinate without AI controlled totalitarianism. Every empire that has tried to expand has struck limits, where they are simply unable to muster the resources to administer, and hold, fringe regions.

Roobaba wrote: ↑January 6th, 2022, 9:13 pm I do like the 'Chat about anything your heart desires here, just be civil.' Very encouraging! I may at some point venture on to the serious 'philosophy forums proper', but many of my interests lie outside of the strictly constrained 'philosophical silos', I see there is a need to exchange and share information. I am hoping the 'PDF' (Philosophy Discussion Forums) regulars can assist me with my problem.. what appears to be the search limitations of these forums, namely that I have tried to find references to H.G. Wells but all the search results find are 'wells' (water wells, gravity wells etc) or even just well without the 's', also no option to search on 'Match Case = Capitals' to return Wells. Also elsewhere such as searching on Google should I use 'H.G. Wells', 'H. G. Wells' or 'HG Wells' etc? Anyway the reason I ask will become clear (I hope!). Have there been many discussions on the forums relating to H.G. Wells, if so please could someone provide a link or links? Are there any 'Wellsians' here by chance?

I have studied H.G. Wells, I think of him as a man of significant importance to our future (along with, to a lesser degree Gene Roddenberry) the future of humanity. I believe we must progress to a 'higher state' or face decline and eventually extinction. H. G. Wells thought the same, he spent much of his life promoting the idea of a 'World State' or 'World Government'. His last book, The Happy Turning: A Dream of Life and Mind at the End of its Tether deals with death, apocalypse, mortality, also with “human insufficiency. Basically we need to 'up our game' or face oblivion!

I have found an interesting discussion, on a thread entitled - Isn't the problem with people a lack of intelligence?

Sy Borg wrote:
"Human intelligence is distributed on a Bell Curve so there are as many in the lower percentiles as in the higher ones. They all have an equal vote, even though a significant number have no hope of understanding the issues and usually seem to rely on Rupert Murdoch's outlets to tell them what's going on."'

and continues..
"I have previously presented the possibility of an eventual species split of humanity as technology-enabled wealthy people develop more quickly than the poor. However, it was not a popular prediction."'

I endorse that prediction! My favourite fictional 'story' (ie not factual) is The Time Machine, the Eloi and the Morlocks, are they not our future to come!?

So, maybe we could have a discussion on World Government our future? I would be happy to use my expanding compendium/database of HGW information, his life, beliefs, visions, predictions etc to further the cause of seeking a better future for us all. I have tried to find others that share my personal vision (based on HGW's) my developing framework of thought for our future, even amongst academics and scholars at the H. G. Wells Society, unfortunately they are more concerned with his literary output, his 'utopian socialist' political views do not feature highly and the members have no ambitions to change the world (similar to the Fabian Society in which HGW was involved). It's a case of as with the famous Karl Marx quote "“The philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways, the point, however, is to change it.”

Your thoughts?

While Sy Borg's description of the even distribution of intelligence is accurate, the additional fact of the matter is that education (as a marker for intelligence and/or motivation), is selected against, genetically, thus over time the species should become, on average stupider. Of course this will take the shape of a bimodaldistribution with the less educated curve being larger than the more educated group.

Sy Borg wrote: Thanks. I enjoy chats about the future.

Most excellent.. although I'm not sure where such chats belong here, in which 'philosophical silo' (or silos), we should be studying the future..?
It could be categorised under 'deep thought' or 'futurism', as HGW said "Wanted – Professors of Foresight!" search google (add H.G. Wells)

It appears that a lounge is a convivial location, where HGW would have been in his house with friends to discuss such important matters.

Sy Borg wrote: Wells's idealism aside

Now with Wells's power of visionary prediction center and squarely in front of us as we begin the journey into our study of the future!

I would suggest a good starting point is the film Idiocracy (seems to be a popular film to study).. also HGW's The Sleeper awakes.

I would also recommend listening to the Historically Thinking Podcast Episode 46: The History of the Future.

Roobaba wrote: ↑January 8th, 2022, 4:58 am

Sy Borg wrote: Thanks. I enjoy chats about the future.

Most excellent.. although I'm not sure where such chats belong here, in which 'philosophical silo' (or silos), we should be studying the future..?
It could be categorised under 'deep thought' or 'futurism', as HGW said "Wanted – Professors of Foresight!" search google (add H.G. Wells)

It appears that a lounge is a convivial location, where HGW would have been in his house with friends to discuss such important matters.

Sy Borg wrote: Wells's idealism aside

Now with Wells's power of visionary prediction center and squarely in front of us as we begin the journey into our study of the future!

I would suggest a good starting point is the film Idiocracy (seems to be a popular film to study).. also HGW's The Sleeper awakes.

I'm familiar with a number of future shock movies - 1984, Brave New World, Idiocracy (which has many similarities to Ben Elton's Blind Faith), 2001, Ex Machina, Gattaca, Minority Report, Blade Runner (flying cars haha), Soylent Green, I Robot, Black Mirror, etc.

The US's future is caricatured by Brave New World and Idiocracy while China's growing totalitarianism by 1984. If a hive mind ever emerges, with minds linked directly to a central controller, chances are it will be in China or North Korea. For a hive mind, philosophy would only be conducted at the macro level; the individuals would be mere functionaries, tools of the controller.

Certainly at this stage, the ethics of conglomerates has proved to be patchy, to put it kindly. It seems to me that the process of learning to play nicely with others - to be ethical - has to start again at a collective level. At this stage the largest collectives - corporations and nations - are amoral, like any young organism focused on consumption and growth.

Unless AI manages something remarkable or climate change becomes too spooky, it would seem that the development of ethics amongst collectives - with widespread commitment to, and adoption of, the quadruple bottom line (with equal weight being given to economic, environmental, social and cultural concerns) - is a long way off.

Roobaba wrote: ↑January 8th, 2022, 6:06 am I would also recommend listening to the Historically Thinking Podcast Episode 46: The History of the Future.

Thanks, I'll have a listen.

LuckyR wrote: over time the species should become, on average stupider.

I agree, but I think I am correct in that I believe over time the species will become, on average stupider.
Unless someone disagrees and refutes my assertion. If so what evidence do they put forward to counter it, none..
as we are discussing the future, neither me or anybody can at this point in time be proven to be right, or wrong.

What I'm interested in and find worth time and effort, is what will happen.. to try to be a 'Professor of Foresight!'

Who can we now turn to if we 'want to believe' (I have seen a Tic Tac UFO which confirmed what I already knew)..
our future is not what the majority of 'unthinking people assume' (should they ever stop and think for a second)..
where are the 'contemporary futurists', the Alvin Tofflers of our current troubled and crazy world we're living in.

Sy Borg wrote: I'm familiar with a number of future shock movies - 1984, Brave New World, Idiocracy (which has many similarities to Ben Elton's Blind Faith), 2001, Ex Machina, Gattaca, Minority Report, Blade Runner (flying cars haha), Soylent Green, I Robot, Black Mirror, etc.

Indeed, they all come highly recommended. Plus the new The Matrix movie. I found this recent BBC News item very interesting, The Matrix's real-world legacy - from red pill incels to conspiracies and deepfakes.

I love this quote:

"I don't know the future... I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end, I came here to tell you how it's going to begin."

Roobaba wrote: I have seen a Tic Tac UFO

Nothing less than incredible, in fact unbelievable! Certainly life changing, perhaps even life-affirming.. and to know another person who witnessed a very similar sighting not far away from mine (in the UK) and at around the same time in 2016.. good for my continued sanity and my mental well being.

I highly recommend watching this Channel 5 TV programme UFOs: The Proof Is Out There.

Roobaba wrote: ↑January 8th, 2022, 7:13 am

LuckyR wrote: over time the species should become, on average stupider.

I agree, but I think I am correct in that I believe over time the species will become, on average stupider.
Unless someone disagrees and refutes my assertion. If so what evidence do they put forward to counter it, none..
as we are discussing the future, neither me or anybody can at this point in time be proven to be right, or wrong.

What I'm interested in and find worth time and effort, is what will happen.. to try to be a 'Professor of Foresight!'

Who can we now turn to if we 'want to believe' (I have seen a Tic Tac UFO which confirmed what I already knew)..
our future is not what the majority of 'unthinking people assume' (should they ever stop and think for a second)..
where are the 'contemporary futurists', the Alvin Tofflers of our current troubled and crazy world we're living in.

Well the key is: "on average", because as I mentioned the distribution will be bimodal. That is the smart folks will get smarter and the dumb people will get dimmer, it's just that there will be more individuals in the latter group. But we are already in a time period where numbers in the population are at an all-time low importance. So the smaller, more intelligent group will be all that is important, historically.