Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[JackDaydream]

I am asking this partly as a fun question, but I do see it as a serious one too because many people in history , including William Blake and Emmanuel Swedenborg have claimed to have conversed with angels and demons. In Western culture, if a person in waking consciousness, claims that they have seen or conversed with these they are likely to be seen as mentally ill.

My own view incorporates the ideas of Carl Jung, which saw such figures as emanating from the collective unconscious, but does that understanding go deep enough? Jung argued that people in the twentieth century were more likely to see aliens than angels or devils because that is more in line with the mythical atmosphere of our times. I am not sure if there has been much philosophy discussion of the topic of angels, demons and spirit guides. That may be because academic philosophers do not take the idea seriously at all. However, in bookshops there are so many published books on the topic in the section of 'Mind, Body and Spirit', indicating that such ideas are extremely strong in the popular imagination.

[PoeticUniverse]

the popular imagination.

I suppose these would be instincts (the collective unconscious being the old name for these) such as attributing agency to nature, as a kind of a default from not knowing a lot of things. It's the demon-haunted world that Carl Sagan refers to in his book about science as an illuminating candle in the darkness of suppositions.

[JackDaydream]

@PoeticUniverse

I actually wrote my own thread after reading the one you had started, feeling a bit puzzled by yours , but chose to write my own because I was unsure if you were wishing to raise a question at all by the poem you wrote about 'gods'. I guess that my own area of questioning is about the nature of the symbols and ideas which are apparent in mythology and religion. These arise in so many cultures and people understand them so differently. The ideas of demons, angels and gods in Egyptian thought, Christianity and, even in shamanism leads to questions about the motifs and symbols underlying ideas about higher aspects of reality and how symbols are understood, from the philosophical point of view in particular.

[PoeticUniverse]

The ideas of demons, angels and gods

Also, the movie 'Angels and Demons' is fantastic, especially with Hans Zimmer's score and adaptation of Joshua Bell's violin. Good for Catholics to watch if they are allowed to.

[JackDaydream]

@PoeticUniverse

I would also say that the areas of anthropology may also be important for considering the basis of symbolism. I am personally interested in mythology, including the ideas of Joseph Campbell about the mythological aspects underlying religion. However, I think that it is highly unlikely that such an area will be considered worthy of any discussion on this particular site. One writer who I am familiar with is Cassier, who looks at the nature of symbolism.

[JackDaydream]

@PoeticUniverse

I am afraid that I have not watched the movie, but I do read books such as Dan Brown, which look at the meaning of symbolism, especially in relation to esoteric traditions. I am sure that you do not believe in the literal interpretation of the esoteric traditions but they are a fascinating source for understanding the symbolic aspects which have been behind many of the mainstream religious traditions.

[PoeticUniverse]

I am afraid that I have not watched the movie

You would love it, plus 'The DaVinci Code', and now there is a series of 'The Lost Symbol'.

Clip with the greatest song playing:

[JackDaydream]

@PoeticUniverse

I have read both 'The Da Vinci Code' and 'The Lost Symbol.' The nature of symbolism is explored in the arts. However, I am also interested in understanding the nature of sources of symbolism, on a philosophical level if anyone on the forum is interested in this. I have read in the fields of theosophy, alchemy as well as in comparative religion, alongside Jung's approach to the symbolic aspects of reality.

[stevie]

I am asking this partly as a fun question, but I do see it as a serious one too because many people in history , including William Blake and Emmanuel Swedenborg have claimed to have conversed with angels and demons. In Western culture, if a person in waking consciousness, claims that they have seen or conversed with these they are likely to be seen as mentally ill.

My own view incorporates the ideas of Carl Jung, which saw such figures as emanating from the collective unconscious, but does that understanding go deep enough? Jung argued that people in the twentieth century were more likely to see aliens than angels or devils because that is more in line with the mythical atmosphere of our times. I am not sure if there has been much philosophy discussion of the topic of angels, demons and spirit guides. That may be because academic philosophers do not take the idea seriously at all. However, in bookshops there are so many published books on the topic in the section of 'Mind, Body and Spirit', indicating that such ideas are extremely strong in the popular imagination.

I cannot comment on Jung's views because I've never studied these.

I'd say that generally conversation with "angels and demons" is either a phenomenon relevant for psychiatry or a phenomenon of imagination. The latter may be a phenomenon to bypass a cognitive dissonance. The interest in "angels, demons and spirit guides" also may be driven to deal with or bypass a cognitive dissonance.
An organism like the human that is capable of perception and thinking has many options to deal with disturbances that may be caused by a particular "operating system" of perception and thinking.

[Eoin]

They are concepts. Go to deaf in one eye (dot com) and see what you think.

[JackDaydream]

@Eoin

Actually, I have much better vision in my left eye than my right eye. I experience more inner aspects of visionary experience in my right eye, when it is closed or on the borderline of sleep. So, my understanding of perception of inner and outer reality is based on the experience of this, and how this may impact on concepts.

[JackDaydream]

@stevie

You suggest tha interest in 'angels, demons and spirit guides 'may be driven to deal with or bypass cognitive dissonance'. The only thing is that there is a danger of reducing it in this way whereas the symbolic dimension is something which seizes the imagination in a spontaneous manner. The framework from which religious experiences can be seen in the following way, by Anthony Stevens, in 'Adriane's Clue: A Guide to the Symbols of Humankind'
'Since long before history began, we humans have expressed our main preoccupations in myths, stories, religions, and dreams, and in the images and objects we create. The eternally recurring themes of childhood and youth, love and sex, hunting and warfare, sickness and healing, death and rebirth, fertility and sacrifice_ has been put into symbols and tales which, for all their manifold variety, often share striking resemblances to one another, wherever on this planet they have been brought into being. Symbolism is a language which transcends race, geography, and time. It is the natural Esperanto of humanity, '

[stevie]

@stevie

You suggest tha interest in 'angels, demons and spirit guides 'may be driven to deal with or bypass cognitive dissonance'. The only thing is that there is a danger of reducing it in this way whereas the symbolic dimension is something which seizes the imagination in a spontaneous manner. The framework from which religious experiences can be seen in the following way, by Anthony Stevens, in 'Adriane's Clue: A Guide to the Symbols of Humankind'
'Since long before history began, we humans have expressed our main preoccupations in myths, stories, religions, and dreams, and in the images and objects we create. The eternally recurring themes of childhood and youth, love and sex, hunting and warfare, sickness and healing, death and rebirth, fertility and sacrifice_ has been put into symbols and tales which, for all their manifold variety, often share striking resemblances to one another, wherever on this planet they have been brought into being. Symbolism is a language which transcends race, geography, and time. It is the natural Esperanto of humanity, '

I don't see a contradiction or incompatibility of what I said and what Anthony Stevens said.

[Sculptor1]

They are all fake.
Delusions beleived by the weak minded.

There is a body of psychology theory that shows how they can seem very real. Without actually having a split personality syndrome people in sensorilly deprived situations can summon up a personality created in their own mind. Children, especially "only" children can create an imaginary friend. People recently bereaved can "feel" the shadow of their dead partner, but this same phenomonon can occur to a person whose lifelong partner decides to run off with the milkman.

[JackDaydream]

@stevie

I think that I interpreted your initial response as being more along the lines of the view that people look for logical explanations and this may lead to wishful thinking about angels and spirit guides. The point which I am making is that religious experiences are spontaneous experiences of what Rudolf Otto describes as 'the numinous'.

One aspect of this kind of experience is spoken of by Julian Jaynes in his, 'Origins of the Bicameral Mind'. He argues that ancient people experienced consciousness differently from people of the present time and heard 'voices'. He goes on to say that people who are diagnosed with schizophrenia may be experiencing a throwback to a stage of consciousness more common in ancient times. He sees this form of consciousness as being based on less of a clear distinction between inner and outer, with the projection of ideas onto figures of gods and other 'spirit' beings. It is hard to know whether his understanding of ancient thinking is correct, but I find it a useful point of view for reflection.