Philosophy Discussion Forums

Go ahead, make my day.

I just can't get enough of people explaining why they must have guns, why more people should have guns (eg teachers, even school kids), how a well-armed society is a polite society, how people are all equally violent in potential, how there is nothing you can do about guns and gun death because freedom so why bother trying?, how the government is coming for you so be ready, why the second Amendment is sacred and why you can't argue with that (ie you can't make any further amendments!)

So please do enlighten me, because I don't see why the US wants to persist with what seems to be a batshit-crazy ballistic Hollywood Armageddon nightmare.

Robert66 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 3:17 am Go ahead, make my day.

I just can't get enough of people explaining why they must have guns, why more people should have guns (eg teachers, even school kids), how a well-armed society is a polite society, how people are all equally violent in potential, how there is nothing you can do about guns and gun death because freedom so why bother trying?, how the government is coming for you so be ready, why the second Amendment is sacred and why you can't argue with that (ie you can't make any further amendments!)

So please do enlighten me, because I don't see why the US wants to persist with what seems to be a batshit-crazy ballistic Hollywood Armageddon nightmare.

I believe the thinking is that if George Floyd had had a gun, then his murderers would have at least paused before murdering him.

Gee

Gee wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 11:35 am
I believe the thinking is that if George Floyd had had a gun, then his murderers would have at least paused before murdering him.

OK, well, now it all makes sense. Floyd should have gotten with the program and armed himself. Logically then he was partly to blame for his own death. How soon after birth should US citizens do the logical thing and arm themselves? And what advice should worried parents give their little ones as they strap on their holster ready for school?

"Remember, Junior, you just can't be sure if a cop won't kneel on your neck for nine minutes, so shoot first and don't worry everything will be fine. Have you brushed your teeth?"

Robert66 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 7:48 pm

Gee wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 11:35 am I believe the thinking is that if George Floyd had had a gun, then his murderers would have at least paused before murdering him.

OK, well, now it all makes sense. Floyd should have gotten with the program and armed himself. Logically then he was partly to blame for his own death. How soon after birth should US citizens do the logical thing and arm themselves? And what advice should worried parents give their little ones as they strap on their holster ready for school?

"Remember, Junior, you just can't be sure if a cop won't kneel on your neck for nine minutes, so shoot first and don't worry everything will be fine. Have you brushed your teeth?"

I apologize. When you stated that you wished to be "enlightened", I took it to mean that you wanted to understand the problem. I was wrong. Apparently you just wanted to share your ignorance, to insult the US, and complain about the people.

Gee

It's a country with a mode of living sustained by permanently engaging in wars. Its government needs its citizens to love battle scenarios and firearms, so they have become an extension of their bodies, like cell phones. It must be tied to a telos of freedom and nationalism (you don't go out as a soldier to kill people or get killed, but to "serve your country"). It's also good for the business of gun manufacturers, a key component of the military-industrial complex. The rest of explanations and justifications are just ad hoc rationalizations.

Gee wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 9:35 pm

Robert66 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 7:48 pm

Gee wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 11:35 am I believe the thinking is that if George Floyd had had a gun, then his murderers would have at least paused before murdering him.

OK, well, now it all makes sense. Floyd should have gotten with the program and armed himself. Logically then he was partly to blame for his own death. How soon after birth should US citizens do the logical thing and arm themselves? And what advice should worried parents give their little ones as they strap on their holster ready for school?

"Remember, Junior, you just can't be sure if a cop won't kneel on your neck for nine minutes, so shoot first and don't worry everything will be fine. Have you brushed your teeth?"

I apologize. When you stated that you wished to be "enlightened", I took it to mean that you wanted to understand the problem. I was wrong. Apparently you just wanted to share your ignorance, to insult the US, and complain about the people.

Gee

I am the one who should apologise. I am sorry. From outside it does seem insane, but of course the vast majority of US citizens are normal, decent, peace lovers. But it seems to me you don't agree with "the thinking" you describe - thinking which would appear to be part of the US problem. And if people think having a gun isnecessary, even if it merely delays being murdered, it does seem like futile thinking. Is there more to it?

Count Lucanor wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 11:20 pm It's a country with a mode of living sustained by permanently engaging in wars. Its government needs its citizens to love battle scenarios and firearms, so they have become an extension of their bodies, like cell phones. It must be tied to a telos of freedom and nationalism (you don't go out as a soldier to kill people or get killed, but to "serve your country"). It's also good for the business of gun manufacturers, a key component of the military-industrial complex. The rest of explanations and justifications are just ad hoc rationalizations.

Thank you Count for a depressingly persuasive explanation.

Robert66 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 3:17 am Go ahead, make my day.

I just can't get enough of people explaining why they must have guns, why more people should have guns (eg teachers, even school kids), how a well-armed society is a polite society, how people are all equally violent in potential, how there is nothing you can do about guns and gun death because freedom so why bother trying?, how the government is coming for you so be ready, why the second Amendment is sacred and why you can't argue with that (ie you can't make any further amendments!)

So please do enlighten me, because I don't see why the US wants to persist with what seems to be a batshit-crazy ballistic Hollywood Armageddon nightmare.

Well the US (like everywhere else) is not a monolith and things happen for numerous and sometimes seemingly conflicting reasons. Some random factoids: first there are so many guns in the American environment and they last so long, that there will be "too many" guns available even if gun sales stopped tomorrow and didn't resume for several hundred years. Secondly, more gun sales at this point doesn't necessarily add to the "problem" of guns since having a single gun owner have 5 vs 10 guns doesn't change the risk much. That is, everyone who wants to have a gun (which is a minority), already have one, so that same number of gun owners having two doesn't change risks much since you can only use one at a time.

The drumbeat against gun reform or gun control is multifactoral. Of course at the root of it is the gun manufacturers, very understandable. There are gun owners who hunt, shoot skeet, target shoot etc. There are just folks who don't like to be told what to do. Some don't even own guns but oppose regulations regardless.

Of course of the triad of gun damage: accidents, suicides and homicides, the vast majority of the first two happen among gun owners themselves, so that risk, like smoking is limited to users, bad, but less bad for society. Homicides are somewhat separate issue since that is performed exclusively by criminals, who are the subset of gun owners who will not give up their guns regardless of any law changes or regulations.

LuckyR wrote:Homicides are somewhat separate issue since that is performed exclusively by criminals, who are the subset of gun owners who will not give up their guns regardless of any law changes or regulations.

On this particular point, I've never bought the "if you outlaw guns then only the outlaws will have guns" argument. I think criminals, like everyone else, tend to do what they perceive to be in their own best interests, given the environment in which they live. i.e. they are rational actors to roughly the same extent that others are. So they tend to arm themselves to the extent that they think they need to be armed. In a society where general gun ownership, and gun use by the police, is rarer, gun ownership and use by criminals will naturally also tend to be rarer. The same principle applies to any type of weapon. If I lived in an environment in which I thought most people around me carried a knife I'd probably be more inclined to consider carrying a knife myself. This would be true regardless of whether or not I was a criminal.

Steve3007 wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 5:29 am

LuckyR wrote:Homicides are somewhat separate issue since that is performed exclusively by criminals, who are the subset of gun owners who will not give up their guns regardless of any law changes or regulations.

On this particular point, I've never bought the "if you outlaw guns then only the outlaws will have guns" argument. I think criminals, like everyone else, tend to do what they perceive to be in their own best interests, given the environment in which they live. i.e. they are rational actors to roughly the same extent that others are. So they tend to arm themselves to the extent that they think they need to be armed. In a society where general gun ownership, and gun use by the police, is rarer, gun ownership and use by criminals will naturally also tend to be rarer. The same principle applies to any type of weapon. If I lived in an environment in which I thought most people around me carried a knife I'd probably be more inclined to consider carrying a knife myself. This would be true regardless of whether or not I was a criminal.

I agree with you in the scenario where noone (or very few) have guns and the criminal is deciding whether or not to acquire one. Other nation's experience bears this out. However we are discussing a completely different psychology, namely giving up something that you already have. To a criminal, a gun is not superfluous, it is an essential workplace tool.

Actually if you outlaw guns, only the worst and most dangerous criminals along with the police and military will have guns.

Robert66 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 3:17 am So please do enlighten me, because I don't see why the US wants to persist with what seems to be a batshit-crazy ballistic Hollywood Armageddon nightmare.

It's simple and obvious. American people perceive reality as "a batshit-crazy ballistic Hollywood Armageddon nightmare", and act accordingly. Empirical observation of their doings confirms this. QED.

Steve3007 wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 5:29 am If I lived in an environment in which I thought most people around me carried a knife I'd probably be more inclined to consider carrying a knife myself. This would be true regardless of whether or not I was a criminal.

Yes, so by extension, would it not be the case that a law forbidding the possession of any kind of firearm, with significant (i.e. deterrent) penalties attached, that was universally enforced, would improve matters?

LuckyR wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 1:29 am There are so many guns in the American environment and they last so long, that there will be "too many" guns available even if gun sales stopped tomorrow and didn't resume for several hundred years.

So to get rid of them, we would have to make the possession of a gun illegal, and enforce the restriction rigorously and universally. Penalties would be severe enough that all but the most committed criminal would abide by the new law.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 11:00 am

Robert66 wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 3:17 am So please do enlighten me, because I don't see why the US wants to persist with what seems to be a batshit-crazy ballistic Hollywood Armageddon nightmare.

It's simple and obvious. American people perceive reality as "a batshit-crazy ballistic Hollywood Armageddon nightmare", and act accordingly. Empirical observation of their doings confirms this. QED.

If I were a rugged individualist, like the pioneers of the American frontier, I would be completely self-reliant.

I wouldn’t depend on the police to protect my life, my liberty or my property when I can provide all the protection I need myself.

It’s a self-reliance thing. I’m an adult—I can take care of myself.