Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sushan]

By studying various religious scriptures, the author has identified a general pattern according to which the events occur when God's Divine Plan (To make the physical world a dwelling place for God) is going to be fulfilled. As per the author, various leaders have emerged since Moses, such as David, Ezra and Esther, Simon Bar Kokhba, who would have fulfilled this task, but failed due to the opposition by the serpent (as per the author, the very serpent who made Eve to eat from the forbidden tree has continued his mission in preventing God's plans from happening).

So, according to the author, this general pattern happens as,

1. Bad events happen
2. Leaders emerge to command
3. Amalek war ( Amalek can be any nation at the time who opposes God's Divine Plan)
4. Building a temple (or the revelation)
5. Death of the leader


The author shows that this cycle has repeated several times, and he suggests that it will help us to predict the future events.

When studying the bible and other relevant religious scriptures, have you noticed such a pattern? Or is this merely a making of the author by arranging few historical facts into a pattern? Is this a proof for the saying, "history repeats itself"?

[detail]

Perhaps a reason for certain time sequences seemingly to repeat themselves or to occur lies in mathematics. If a political system is described by an amount of finite states , lets say b_1 .. b_n for a predetermined for a certain time t_o and you have a finite discrete timelength of m , then the amount of possible states within an interval of length m is n^m (read: n to the power of m) . It seems obvious that some sequences tend to occur very often meanwhile others are left unused in this markov chain. The code of the bible , that the person uses is a finite code (lengthy but not infinite) , in this context of interpretation of history , the made conjecture should be clear.

[Sushan]

Perhaps a reason for certain time sequences seemingly to repeat themselves or to occur lies in mathematics. If a political system is described by an amount of finite states , lets say b_1 .. b_n for a predetermined for a certain time t_o and you have a finite discrete timelength of m , then the amount of possible states within an interval of length m is n^m (read: n to the power of m) . It seems obvious that some sequences tend to occur very often meanwhile others are left unused in this markov chain. The code of the bible , that the person uses is a finite code (lengthy but not infinite) , in this context of interpretation of history , the made conjecture should be clear.

I agree with that possibility. This can e taken as a finite Markov Chain. But, this is quite a complex thing because to occur this sort of a set of events, there are numerous factors that affect, and with various differences, the probability of the occurrence of next event can vary. But here the author has shown a repetition of similar sort of events with almost a same time gap. So, can we take this as an actual Markov Process? Seemingly these events have a very high probability to be repeated in the same manner in similar gaps of time

[Alias]

duplicate post

[Alias]

1. Something happened.
2. Something else happened because of the first thing.
3. Something was done because the first and second things made it necessary.
4. Somebody died because everybody dies.
5. Etc, etc.

Of course historical events have been repeated over an over. People need, do, want and make the same kind of things, generation after generation. They have the same problems, the same aspirations, the same delusions, the same conflicts. They make the same mistakes and eventually come-a-cropper in much the same ways.
Except, of course, that each cycle has significant differences from the previous cycle, in terms of geography, population, technological advancement and configuration of relationships between groups. So it's always different.

[Sculptor1]

History never repeats itself.
Although gross generalisms are true such as empires rise and fall. Or leaders come and go. In truth all leaders ome and go for unique reasons and all empires necessarily rise and fall, but also for unique reasons.
The phrase "History repeats itself!" is a theory that does no work; empty words for those that have no clue about the causes and influences of historical change.

[Alias]

It's just pattern-forming.
I see six points of identity - or at least similarity - between two pictures, so I declare them to be congruent.
Picking six features out of a historical event to connect up and superimpose onto another historical event is very much like picking six stars in the night sky, connecting them up and drawing a lion or dragon or fish.

[Sushan]

1. Something happened.
2. Something else happened because of the first thing.
3. Something was done because the first and second things made it necessary.
4. Somebody died because everybody dies.
5. Etc, etc.

Of course historical events have been repeated over an over. People need, do, want and make the same kind of things, generation after generation. They have the same problems, the same aspirations, the same delusions, the same conflicts. They make the same mistakes and eventually come-a-cropper in much the same ways.
Except, of course, that each cycle has significant differences from the previous cycle, in terms of geography, population, technological advancement and configuration of relationships between groups. So it's always different.

Yes, it is same as well as different at the same time. When it is put in overly generalized pattern like you mentioned, it can be applied anywhere and we can see that the world is full of patterns.

Human nature is more or less the same, despite the era or the civilization. The differences are found in the ways that people try to achieve their goals. They tend to do similar kind of things and get similar kind of results. This fact is common for individuals as well as populations.

But here, I am raising this question because of this author's claim regarding a very specific pattern that has been (he claims) happened four times and the fifth time is yet to come in near future. How acceptable is that prediction? Will things happen in a predetermined pattern which is mentioned in the bible?

[Sushan]

History never repeats itself.
Although gross generalisms are true such as empires rise and fall. Or leaders come and go. In truth all leaders ome and go for unique reasons and all empires necessarily rise and fall, but also for unique reasons.
The phrase "History repeats itself!" is a theory that does no work; empty words for those that have no clue about the causes and influences of historical change.

Maybe history does not repeat. But what if it rhymes? Yes, the overly generalized patterns can be seen as repeating always. If an empire rises, it has to be fallen one day. If a man is born, he has to die one day.

But, is there no chance to this sort of specific patterns to occur? Various historians compare today's governments to ancient empires and show the similarities of the governance. And they consider the pathway that today's governments go and predict these these things will happen next, because that was how it happened in those ancient empires that they referred to. Do these predictions have neither validity nor use?

[Sushan]

It's just pattern-forming.
I see six points of identity - or at least similarity - between two pictures, so I declare them to be congruent.
Picking six features out of a historical event to connect up and superimpose onto another historical event is very much like picking six stars in the night sky, connecting them up and drawing a lion or dragon or fish.

I see your point. Maybe the author has just seen what he wanted to see and formed a pattern. He has done some exercise to find this similar pattern four times in the history and predicted the near future accordingly. Ultimately he has developed an interesting concept, but seemingly it has neither validity, nor use at all.

[Alias]

But here, I am raising this question because of this author's claim regarding a very specific pattern that has been (he claims) happened four times and the fifth time is yet to come in near future.

It has happened a thousand times and the thousand-and-first-time will come in the near future.

How acceptable is that prediction?

Precisely as acceptable as the the reader is willing to accept.

Will things happen in a predetermined pattern which is mentioned in the bible?

Of course not. They didn't even happen the first time in the way they were written in the bible.
Every contemporary chronicler lies about the deeds of his leader, the nobility of his generals, the hounourable deportment of his army and - especially - the moral justification of his nation's involvement. In whatever embroglio took place.
True history - true to the degree it can be reconstructed from documents and detritus - is only written much later, and usually by foreigners.

[Sculptor1]

History never repeats itself.
Although gross generalisms are true such as empires rise and fall. Or leaders come and go. In truth all leaders ome and go for unique reasons and all empires necessarily rise and fall, but also for unique reasons.
The phrase "History repeats itself!" is a theory that does no work; empty words for those that have no clue about the causes and influences of historical change.

Maybe history does not repeat. But what if it rhymes?

:headslap:

[detail]

Perhaps a reason for certain time sequences seemingly to repeat themselves or to occur lies in mathematics. If a political system is described by an amount of finite states , lets say b_1 .. b_n for a predetermined for a certain time t_o and you have a finite discrete timelength of m , then the amount of possible states within an interval of length m is n^m (read: n to the power of m) . It seems obvious that some sequences tend to occur very often meanwhile others are left unused in this markov chain. The code of the bible , that the person uses is a finite code (lengthy but not infinite) , in this context of interpretation of history , the made conjecture should be clear.

I agree with that possibility. This can e taken as a finite Markov Chain. But, this is quite a complex thing because to occur this sort of a set of events, there are numerous factors that affect, and with various differences, the probability of the occurrence of next event can vary. But here the author has shown a repetition of similar sort of events with almost a same time gap. So, can we take this as an actual Markov Process? Seemingly these events have a very high probability to be repeated in the same manner in similar gaps of time

If the code is made quite , unrealistic occult like this, one can just describe history with time gaps. So the fit that has been taken is adjusted but not precisely done for a scientist . It's a fit in the bible code not in reality , this diminishes the amount of possible representations that much , that it seems to be the only solution. Don't forget it's not a description in physics , but in a most boresome religious work, which tends to hide the real mechanisms but pretends to be a descriptive fit (which it isn't ). From the viewpoint of his religion this could be correct , because he is not capable to describe the time interval with his bible code in between his fits, it's perhaps not correct from the historical viewpoint.

[Sushan]

But here, I am raising this question because of this author's claim regarding a very specific pattern that has been (he claims) happened four times and the fifth time is yet to come in near future.

It has happened a thousand times and the thousand-and-first-time will come in the near future.

How acceptable is that prediction?

Precisely as acceptable as the the reader is willing to accept.

Will things happen in a predetermined pattern which is mentioned in the bible?

Of course not. They didn't even happen the first time in the way they were written in the bible.
Every contemporary chronicler lies about the deeds of his leader, the nobility of his generals, the hounourable deportment of his army and - especially - the moral justification of his nation's involvement. In whatever embroglio took place.
True history - true to the degree it can be reconstructed from documents and detritus - is only written much later, and usually by foreigners.

Yes, you have raised a valid and a valuable point. History is written by winners. So they praise their own party and degrade the opposing party to the maximum possible extent. So among many historical stories, there is truth as well as fictional material. So, from such content, if someone, like this author, has identified a pattern and has thought further based on such content, the whole thing becomes a complete lie.

As reliable and 100% correct history is difficult to be found, it is quite a useless effort to form speculations based on this sort of historical patterns.

[Sushan]

Perhaps a reason for certain time sequences seemingly to repeat themselves or to occur lies in mathematics. If a political system is described by an amount of finite states , lets say b_1 .. b_n for a predetermined for a certain time t_o and you have a finite discrete timelength of m , then the amount of possible states within an interval of length m is n^m (read: n to the power of m) . It seems obvious that some sequences tend to occur very often meanwhile others are left unused in this markov chain. The code of the bible , that the person uses is a finite code (lengthy but not infinite) , in this context of interpretation of history , the made conjecture should be clear.

I agree with that possibility. This can e taken as a finite Markov Chain. But, this is quite a complex thing because to occur this sort of a set of events, there are numerous factors that affect, and with various differences, the probability of the occurrence of next event can vary. But here the author has shown a repetition of similar sort of events with almost a same time gap. So, can we take this as an actual Markov Process? Seemingly these events have a very high probability to be repeated in the same manner in similar gaps of time

If the code is made quite , unrealistic occult like this, one can just describe history with time gaps. So the fit that has been taken is adjusted but not precisely done for a scientist . It's a fit in the bible code not in reality , this diminishes the amount of possible representations that much , that it seems to be the only solution. Don't forget it's not a description in physics , but in a most boresome religious work, which tends to hide the real mechanisms but pretends to be a descriptive fit (which it isn't ). From the viewpoint of his religion this could be correct , because he is not capable to describe the time interval with his bible code in between his fits, it's perhaps not correct from the historical viewpoint.

I agree. As many things in the bible cannot be taken with its literal meaning, it can be applied to the time lines that it give as well. So if such time lines are not accurate or scientifically accepted ones, then this source cannot be taken as a a reliable historical data source. So, if speculations are made on such a source then they too become unreliable.