Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Arjen]

Recently, Mulan made headlines concerning looking away from the CCP's atrocities.
We see hashtags like:
#StandwithHongKong
#StandwithHumanRights
#BoycotMulan

I suppose everyone knows about the concentration camps containing the Uyghur minority. Some reports say 1 million are in camps like that, others say 3-5 million. Many never come back. Some come back really "disturbed" after years. In this article, for example, a clear idea can be found concerning what is going on:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... dden_camps
More disturbingly, this parallel exists:
http://auschwitz.org/en/gallery/exhibit ... mes,1.html (no good link; it is about the tons of human hair)
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/c ... index.html

The idea is horrifying, but as now 500000 Tibetans are reportedly also in camps:
https://canadafreepress.com/article/chi ... bour-camps
https://nypost.com/2020/09/22/china-rep ... bor-camps/
And by my own calculations 10000 arrested in the last few months in HK:
https://www.dw.com/en/chinas-influence- ... a-54842597

It can't be denied that the CCP is doing something with the population that is not Han-Chinese.

People call it Chinazi nowadays and the leader Xitler. Communism is a form of fascism ofcourse, but until Xitler's rise, I think everyone was happy with the breath of fresh air that was going through China. Since the CCPvirus, we see many military escalations:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/23/in ... kirmishes/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiw ... SKBN25M0VE
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... nds-switch
etc.

Are we ramping up to a 3rd world war against Chinazi?
Should the free world strike hard and fast, or try to talk teh CCP out of these human rights violations?
What is your opinons?

[Jack D Ripper]

What I think should be done is talk with China to try to get them to change their ways, with economic sanctions against them if they continue. For example, I think a refusal to trade with China (by the US and simultaneously other countries) would tend to get them to consider changing their ways.

What should be done and what will be done, of course, often have little to do with each other. The reason being, doing the right thing often comes with a cost, a cost that often people are not willing to pay. I will presently refrain from commenting on what this says about people.

[Arjen]

I am not sure if you have heard of the appeasement politics in the years leading up to WW2? Had no one appeased, it would have been over much, much quicker.
https://www.historycrunch.com/appeaseme ... ar-ii.html

What's more, the CCP isn't slowing down, they are just censoring the news more and now, not just locking up Uyghurs and Tibetans, but also starting with mass arrests in HK and in Inner Mongolia a similar tendency is occurring:
https://www.foxnews.com/world/inner-mon ... in-schools
So, we are seeing that, after a movement towards openness and freedom, Xitler has dramatically increased xenofobia and it is looking like genetic cleansing is occurring in Xinjiang and as if Tibet might be next for the genetic cleansing. All these area's are just in a different phase of the process.

I don't think an appeasement is going to work, I mean.

[Jack D Ripper]

I did not say that countries should appease China. I said that demands should be made of China, with economic sanctions taken against them if they do not appease us.

Of course, I do not think the countries of the world have the will to try to force China in such a manner, as too many countries like getting cheap Chinese products.

[Arjen]

In that case I agree with you. We should try to change China's behavior. And yes, not many are interested in trying to sanction China. Or better: we see politicians being bribes and threatened and brainwashed. Either one of the 3 will have an effect.

[Steve3007]

Should the free world strike hard and fast, or try to talk teh CCP out of these human rights violations?
What is your opinons?

What I think should be done is talk with China to try to get them to change their ways, with economic sanctions against them if they continue. For example, I think a refusal to trade with China (by the US and simultaneously other countries) would tend to get them to consider changing their ways.

What should be done and what will be done, of course, often have little to do with each other. The reason being, doing the right thing often comes with a cost, a cost that often people are not willing to pay. I will presently refrain from commenting on what this says about people.

We should do this to stop them from stealing our precious bodily fluids, eh?

But seriously,

Yes, of course it would be great to be able to force despotic regimes to stop imprisoning/torturing/killing people simply because they oppose the government or because the government doesn't like their ethnicity or religion. It would be great to be able to get North Korea to free all the people in their own concentration camps. It would have been great to be able to stop the Assad regime from imprisoning and torturing its opponents and dropping barrels packed with explosives on hospitals and bakeries. It would have been great to be able to stop Saddam Hussein's atrocities without causing even greater suffering. It would have been great to be able to stop the US from carpet bombing Vietnam, ideally by making the French give Vietnam back to the Vietnamese before it all started. etc.

But as well as the selfish protection of vested interests which stops various actions again various atrocities there is also the consideration of how to do it without causing even more suffering. As we know from experiences like the toppling of Saddam in Iraq, dictatorial regimes effectively have their populations held hostage. Negotiations with hostage takers are difficult. Particularly if the number of hostages is millions or billions. That's one reason why the "I'll just keep turning the thumb screws until you do as I say" technique often ends in even more suffering than it is ostensibly supposed to stop.

[Arjen]

India and Japan are forming naval military alliances and Australia is looking to join up. Fortress Taiwan is right there. The USA is deploying navy after Beijing provocation with many jet flights.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/militar ... -navy-live
(propaganda warning: the USA responded to provocations, not the other way around).

It sure looks like a cold war and an arms race.

I must say that I sure hope Jack's idea will take hold, because that certainly is the nicer ending.

[Sculptor1]

LOL

A litany of hypocracy.

[Fellowmater]

It will be nearly impossible to sanction China as majority of the well-developed countries economy are depending on China's manpower. It will cost them billions or trillions of money if one country will try that approach and still nothing good will come out of it.

[Arjen]

It is a terrible mistake to be deoendent on this regime. Especially considering part of the reason for cheap products is Uyghur soave labour and situations like the CCP virus when suddenly we can't get medical supplies.

[Man With Beard]

A few years back the "People" magazine did a big story with a title in big letters "Butchers and Monsters, Chinese Oppression in Tibet."

It was illustrated with a photo of an Asian-looking policeman clubbing a Buddhist monk.

The tiny lettering mention that the photo was taken in Nepal was covered up by the magazine rack.

I have been very skeptical about any news concerning China since, and little that I have seen made me become less skeptical.

The random numbers of Uygurs in "concentration camps" do not help - sometimes its 100 thousand, sometimes its millions, sometimes its half-a-million - it is obvious that the reporters are pulling their numbers out of their asses.

Do not get me wrong, I have no doubt that the government of China is violating human rights. I just doubt the specific reports. What I do not doubt is that a big part of the mix is good old-fashioned racism.

[Arjen]

You are missing the cause of the media issues about the CCP:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/d ... xi-jinping
"Beijing is buying up media outlets and training scores of foreign journalists to ‘tell China’s story well’ – as part of a worldwide propaganda campaign of astonishing scope and ambition."

Above you see links to the main reason people conclude to the genocide of the Jews: tons of human hair being found. And now, Uyghur hair is being found....in toys!

Also: The exact numbers of dead Jews were never confirmed. Will you deny that genocide as well?

[Sculptor1]

Recently, Mulan made headlines concerning looking away from the CCP's atrocities.

You do not [care] about the Uighers

[Arjen]

Sculptor1 Whatever gave you that idea? And please, be kind and don't insult me in that way.

[Sculptor1]

lol lol