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GaryLouisSmith: Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind?Science demands empirical evidence, Faith does not. If the theist's belief is founded on direct mystical/intuitive experience, he has evidence of the existence of a higher power or intelligence.
GaryLouisSmith wrote: ↑September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.While your comments fit some atheist's thoughts, they are addressing a nonproblem. Theism doesn't need to be "explained". Currently it is the default position. In most of the world those who are religious, that is, most people, are religious because their families are religious and thus they were brought up religious. No deep contemplation required. OTOH, if such people end up atheistic, a certain amount of thought is required to break away from their upbringing.
LuckyR wrote: ↑September 29th, 2019, 4:47 amSo do you think a theist can understand atheism? I mean really understand it.GaryLouisSmith wrote: ↑September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.While your comments fit some atheist's thoughts, they are addressing a nonproblem. Theism doesn't need to be "explained". Currently it is the default position. In most of the world those who are religious, that is, most people, are religious because their families are religious and thus they were brought up religious. No deep contemplation required. OTOH, if such people end up atheistic, a certain amount of thought is required to break away from their upbringing.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑September 29th, 2019, 6:36 am Which way round is this topic? Are you asking if theists can understand atheists, or if atheists can understand theists? Or both?I'm asking if you think a theist can understand, really understand, atheism.
GaryLouisSmith wrote: ↑September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.You have adequately demonstrated your problem.
GaryLouisSmith wrote: ↑September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.This seems to be about an atheist not understanding a theist, but the title is about the opposite direction.
GaryLouisSmith wrote: ↑September 29th, 2019, 8:11 am I’m the OP, the guy that first asked the question. I would answer it by saying that I think a theist cannot understand, really understand, atheism. Let me give you something analogous. Can a heterosexual, who has never experienced sexual attraction to someone of the same sex, understand homosexuality? And vice versa, can a homosexual, who has never experienced sexual attraction to the opposite sex, understand heterosexuality? In both cases I say No. For me to understand something is to have direct acquaintance with that something. I understand color because I have experienced color. I understand how someone could like disco music because I like it. I do not understand how someone could like harsh metallic music. I also don’t understand how someone could like folk music or spicy hot food or bungee jumping. Most theists have never directly experienced the absence of God. They simply don’t know what it feels like. Therefore I say that they don’t understand it. Likewise, most atheists have never experienced the presence of God. And therefore they don’t understand it.I've think you've captured the essence of the question here at the end - how one answers this question largely hinge on how one interprets the subtleties in the meaning of 'understand' in this particular context.
If you do not share my idea that to understand something is to experience that something directly, then you may disagree with me. I have an extreme empiricism. I also believe that one can directly experience the absence of something.
GaryLouisSmith wrote: ↑September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.Theists base their theology on faith, which is belief in the absence of proof.
Felix wrote: ↑September 29th, 2019, 3:26 amI would not call this "evidence." I would call it "hope" as in faith, hope, and charity.GaryLouisSmith: Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind?Science demands empirical evidence, Faith does not. If the theist's belief is founded on direct mystical/intuitive experience, he has evidence of the existence of a higher power or intelligence.
It is the confirmed atheist who is non-intuitive will never be able to understand the theist. As you said, he will just think he is deranged or misguided. But then rational human beings seem deranged to other animals.
LuckyR wrote: ↑September 29th, 2019, 4:47 amI have found in my experience with atheists both historical and current and both famous and unknown, that atheist have either been brought up without any religion (so they are in the same boat as those who have been brainwashed since childhood) or else atheists were once religious but then had a very disappointing experience in life (death of a loved one, divorce, war, concentration camps, etc.) that they have since become atheist when their faith failed them.GaryLouisSmith wrote: ↑September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.While your comments fit some atheist's thoughts, they are addressing a nonproblem. Theism doesn't need to be "explained". Currently it is the default position. In most of the world those who are religious, that is, most people, are religious because their families are religious and thus they were brought up religious. No deep contemplation required. OTOH, if such people end up atheistic, a certain amount of thought is required to break away from their upbringing.
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