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Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Materialism: a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter

“Everything is matter.” Who says so? I, the subject. And if there were no subject who says so, there would be no one for whom matter matters, and therefore there would be no sense in saying that there is anything at all, because being and its meaning are not separable from each other. Nothingness of meaning means nothingness of being. So there is at least (1) the subject's (2) consciousness of (3) matter, instead of matter only. All three components are necessary to make a satisfactory ontological picture of reality.

That I, as the subject, could be somehow reducible to my objects, or that my consciousness of matter could be somehow reducible to what I am conscious of, is absurd.

Matter matters to me, but nothing matters to matter.

So by doing a simple phenomenological analysis of the being of matter we find that materialism is a self-contradictory position.

Tamminen wrote: ↑May 20th, 2019, 9:25 am Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Materialism: a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter

“Everything is matter.” Who says so? I, the subject. And if there were no subject who says so, there would be no one for whom matter matters, and therefore there would be no sense in saying that there is anything at all, because being and its meaning are not separable from each other. Nothingness of meaning means nothingness of being. So there is at least (1) the subject's (2) consciousness of (3) matter, instead of matter only. All three components are necessary to make a satisfactory ontological picture of reality.

That I, as the subject, could be somehow reducible to my objects, or that my consciousness of matter could be somehow reducible to what I am conscious of, is absurd.

Matter matters to me, but nothing matters to matter.

So by doing a simple phenomenological analysis of the being of matter we find that materialism is a self-contradictory position.

No, you're wrong, because being is independent of meaning. Objective existence is independent of subjective importance/relevance/significance.

I question materialism as well. If materialism is true, then everything can be explained by physical properties. I have thoughts, desires, goals, beliefs, knowledge- they are realities, and yet none of those things have physical properties, therefore materialism is false.

Tamminen wrote: ↑May 20th, 2019, 9:25 am

Matter matters to me, but nothing matters to matter.

And thus matter both pre- and post- exsits you.

anonymous66 --- I have thoughts, desires, goals, beliefs, knowledge- they are realities, and yet none of those things have physical properties, therefore materialism is false.

Try having thoughts, desires, goals, beliefs and knowledge without having physical properties.

Consul wrote: ↑May 21st, 2019, 5:00 pm No, you're wrong, because being is independent of meaning. Objective existence is independent of subjective importance/relevance/significance.

Only the subject can make claims about reality. The subject can only make claims about objects within the subject-world relationship. Also claims about places in physical spacetime where there are no actual subjects are made within the subject-world relationship. That such valid claims can be made is not a valid argument for materialism.

Wittgenstein remarked that we can only seek in space. In the same way we can say that we can only posit something in logical space. And it makes no sense to speak about logical space if there is no one for whom it is the logical space to operate in. So the subject is the limit of the logical space where the world exists. Therefore we cannot get rid of the subject in ontology. Ignoring the subject would be going beyond the limits of logic.

The universe is the subject's home. Nothing else.

Alias wrote: ↑May 21st, 2019, 11:08 pm And thus matter both pre- and post- exsits you.

See my reply to Consul.

Alias wrote: ↑May 21st, 2019, 11:08 pm Try having thoughts, desires, goals, beliefs and knowledge without having physical properties.

I am not claiming that it is possible. We speak of different things.

Tamminen wrote: ↑May 20th, 2019, 9:25 am Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Materialism: a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter

“Everything is matter.” Who says so? I, the subject. And if there were no subject who says so, there would be no one for whom matter matters, and therefore there would be no sense in saying that there is anything at all, because being and its meaning are not separable from each other. Nothingness of meaning means nothingness of being. So there is at least (1) the subject's (2) consciousness of (3) matter, instead of matter only. All three components are necessary to make a satisfactory ontological picture of reality.

That I, as the subject, could be somehow reducible to my objects, or that my consciousness of matter could be somehow reducible to what I am conscious of, is absurd.

Matter matters to me, but nothing matters to matter.

So by doing a simple phenomenological analysis of the being of matter we find that materialism is a self-contradictory position.

Yes I agree with Tamminen. My only argument with Tamminen is that the "subject" has physical properties we have not been attending to. I am not asserting that the subject is simply physical properties that we have not discovered, but I am asserting that the subject has physical properties that we have not yet discovered. Let us not make the mistake that the "subject" has no physical nature that we have overlooked.

Consul wrote: ↑May 21st, 2019, 5:00 pm ...being is independent of meaning. Objective existence is independent of subjective importance/relevance/significance.

I did not speak about "subjective importance/relevance/significance". I claim that all being, to be in the first place, must have a subjective perspective: it must mean something for the subject, whatever it means, or lacks all meaning, as long as there is the subject's perspective to being. Without it being loses not only meaning but itself. Note that we have a subjective perspective also to events that we are not conscious of, or which have no physical contact to us.

Alias wrote: ↑May 21st, 2019, 11:08 pm

anonymous66 --- I have thoughts, desires, goals, beliefs, knowledge- they are realities, and yet none of those things have physical properties, therefore materialism is false.

Try having thoughts, desires, goals, beliefs and knowledge without having physical properties.

You are quite correct- nothing physical= nothing mental. And yet materialism is still absurd. I propose that all matter has both physical and mental properties.

Tamminen wrote: ↑May 20th, 2019, 9:25 am Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Materialism: a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter

“Everything is matter.” Who says so? I, the subject. And if there were no subject who says so, there would be no one for whom matter matters, and therefore there would be no sense in saying that there is anything at all, because being and its meaning are not separable from each other. Nothingness of meaning means nothingness of being. So there is at least (1) the subject's (2) consciousness of (3) matter, instead of matter only. All three components are necessary to make a satisfactory ontological picture of reality.

That I, as the subject, could be somehow reducible to my objects, or that my consciousness of matter could be somehow reducible to what I am conscious of, is absurd.

Matter matters to me, but nothing matters to matter.

So by doing a simple phenomenological analysis of the being of matter we find that materialism is a self-contradictory position.

Tamminen nice job of defining it, per Webster's.

But you did not explain or "prove" why you believe it is "absurd".

You simply have stated your summary opinion.

This is not a case of a-priori validity.

It is more of a challenge in the realm of a-posteriori requiring a heavy dose of induction, deduction, logic, and careful attention not to get trapped by fallacies.

Maybe you should try again.

Alias wrote: ↑May 21st, 2019, 11:08 pm

Tamminen wrote: ↑May 20th, 2019, 9:25 am

Matter matters to me, but nothing matters to matter.

And thus matter both pre- and post- exsits you.

anonymous66 --- I have thoughts, desires, goals, beliefs, knowledge- they are realities, and yet none of those things have physical properties, therefore materialism is false.

Try having thoughts, desires, goals, beliefs and knowledge without having physical properties.

We will all get to try that someday when our bodies have dissolved or been cremated back into their basic chemical elements and compounds. No body lasts forever. Around 115 seems to be the maximum, and throughout all history we only know of 48 people who have accomplished this. Only 4 of them are now still living.

Of course that's the question isn't it? What are we able to do without these physical bodies of ours?

As for me, I am not worried about this. I presume that one day the lights will go out of my body and I will then enter some other kind of state. And whether I do or don't does not matter either because there is nothing I can do about it.

I worry more about my cat. He has a 15 to 20 year normal lifespan and he is now 5 years old. I will be heartbroken when he must leave the world of the living.

The Philosophy God(s) must feel the same way about us. He/She/They must watch us ultimately die, and must miss those of us whom were loved.

"I worry more about my cat. He has a 15 to 20 year normal lifespan and he is now 5 years old."

How ironic, since he may be feeling sorry for you, a poor creature trapped in temporal awareness who measures his life in years.

Felix wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2019, 2:35 pm "I worry more about my cat. He has a 15 to 20 year normal lifespan and he is now 5 years old."

How ironic, since he may be feeling sorry for you, a poor creature trapped in temporal awareness who measures his life in years.

The Cat lives in the moment and enjoys every moment of it, yes indeed.

But his future and mine are both dependent on my getting things done, which requires temporal awareness.

Cats and other animals besides humans are NOT philosophers. They only live in the moment.

We as philosophers alone are able to comprehend the past and the future as well.

"Cats and other animals besides humans are NOT philosophers. They only live in the moment."

Call it a living philosophy, as someone once said, "All my Zen teachers are cats."

Felix wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2019, 2:40 am "Cats and other animals besides humans are NOT philosophers. They only live in the moment."

Call it a living philosophy, as someone once said, "All my Zen teachers are cats."

My cat has very weak ethics because whenever I prepare meat in the kitchen for cooking, he tries to steal it.

He already stole a fish fillet from me when my back was turned.

While my cat is a great natural born hunter, he is definitely not a philosopher.

Tamminen wrote: ↑May 20th, 2019, 9:25 am Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Materialism: a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter

“Everything is matter.” Who says so? I, the subject. And if there were no subject who says so, there would be no one for whom matter matters, and therefore there would be no sense in saying that there is anything at all, because being and its meaning are not separable from each other. Nothingness of meaning means nothingness of being. So there is at least (1) the subject's (2) consciousness of (3) matter, instead of matter only. All three components are necessary to make a satisfactory ontological picture of reality.

That I, as the subject, could be somehow reducible to my objects, or that my consciousness of matter could be somehow reducible to what I am conscious of, is absurd.

Matter matters to me, but nothing matters to matter.

So by doing a simple phenomenological analysis of the being of matter we find that materialism is a self-contradictory position.

All empirical evidence of consciousness is based upon material. Specifically it is neural material. Without it there is nothing of the kind.
So I think you might want to extend your understanding of matter to include the unique organisations of matter to include such things as information, data, and consciousness.