Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[-1-]

Is knowledge invariably found suspended in an aqueous solution?

If you got this problem to work out on a biology exam, what would be your solution?

If the solution excludes dry and gaseous materials, what arguments or subject matter materials could you bring up to alter the solution?

If knowledge is a function of solutions, which are, coincidentally, also solutions to problems, then couldn't knowledge be injected in liqueous forms into humans?

Would a human retain his or her humanity, or would he or she become a humaneous form of existence, if too much knowledge were injected into it? Would you call this new being a supperman (homo erectus consumicus foodus eveningus), or superman (homo erectus superiourious) , or souperman (homo erectus suppa), or super, man(homo erectus highus phyvus)?

Jokes aside, it is true that any form of reflection or perception of truth is imbedded in material that is mainly comprising water.

Therefore I declare water the most intelligent of all chemical compounds. Or rather, the chemical compound contributing the most to intelligence.

What are your thoughts on this? Should we declare a slot in a year to be "International Water Day" or "the week of the water", either to celebrate the human intellect?

[Felix]

Much of our knowledge is "suspended" in nonaqueous forms, e.g., the silicon chips embedded in the pc from which I am relaying this message, which has prompted some exobiologists to speculate that intelligent noncarbon (nonaqueous) based life forms may exist in the universe.

[-1-]

Much of our knowledge is "suspended" in nonaqueous forms, e.g., the silicon chips embedded in the pc from which I am relaying this message, which has prompted some exobiologists to speculate that intelligent noncarbon (nonaqueous) based life forms may exist in the universe.

Where on Earth you mined this old and I had thought by now defunct topic of my initiation from, o Felix?

To answer your post: you are right, I can't bring up counter arguments. (That's pretty boring, but hey. I only argue for the truth. If you got truth, I shan't badger you with inane arguments.)

[Sy Borg]

Then again, must knowledge always involve electrical signals? No, on second thoughts there is the abacus.

Anyway, it can be interesting going through the "View Unread Posts" section. Occasional neglected threads that come alive after an early dormant period.

[Felix]

Then again, must knowledge always involve electrical signals?

Electro-magnetism, yes.... I wouldn't call an abacus a medium of knowledge, merely a tool. But then computers are still just tools, not yet sentient, maybe we need to make them carbon based? Just add water? No, that won't work, computers detest water.

Did you ever hear a computer say, "I am absolutely parched, give me a drink of water!" Or maybe, "I had a really bad computing day in the lab today, pour me a shot of whisky!" Neither have I.

[Sy Borg]

But then computers are still just tools, not yet sentient, maybe we need to make them carbon based? Just add water? No, that won't work, computers detest water.

Did you ever hear a computer say, "I am absolutely parched, give me a drink of water!" Or maybe, "I had a really bad computing day in the lab today, pour me a shot of whisky!" Neither have I.

The beauty of water is that it flows seamlessly and acts as a solvent, generating reactions that are the building blocks of life. Electricity is the one thing that flows like water. Electricity also breaks things down and generates reactions.

Machines need not crave electricity because it flows into them evenly - akin to drip feeds. When the electricity stops, the machine won't break down in a week as we do. It can lie dormant for years until the electricity is turned on again. Smart machines won't need emotions. Instead they will simply calculate optimal possibilities in real time, 1,000x faster than our brains can operate, as per their prime directives.

[Steve3007]

Greta:

When the electricity stops, the machine won't break down in a week as we do. It can lie dormant for years until the electricity is turned on again.

If our blood stops flowing we break down in minutes due to the irreversible damage done by oxygen starvation. I guess the fact that computers don't suffer the same fate in the absence of electricity reflects the fact the we evolved but computers were designed in advance. We weren't planned and put together in advance and then "switched on". The blood (or more generally fluids) flowed from the very beginning. In the beginning, of course, the fluid was outside, and for many creatures still is. But we animals took some of that salty fluid and trapped it inside a semi-permeable bag of skin so we can carry our own little oceans around with us.

-- Updated Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:26 am to add the following --

Having said that, I guess some kind of analogy could be made with seeds: they can lie dormant for years until fluid is re-introduced and they spring to life.

-- Updated Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:31 am to add the following --

OP:

Therefore I declare water the most intelligent of all chemical compounds. Or rather, the chemical compound contributing the most to intelligence.

I agree with the general sentiment of the topic that water is great stuff. Three cheers for water. Liquid over a relatively wide range of temperatures, forms numerous useful chemical bonds and is therefore a great solvent, made from widely available chemical elements etc. Some people have suggested that in lower temperature environments (e.g. Titan) liquid methane could perform a similar role. Maybe.

-- Updated Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:34 am to add the following --

Greta:

Anyway, it can be interesting going through the "View Unread Posts" section. Occasional neglected threads that come alive after an early dormant period.

I see you actually beat me to the seed analogy. Watering neglected topics with the watering can of thought. Nice one.

[Sy Borg]

Greta:

When the electricity stops, the machine won't break down in a week as we do. It can lie dormant for years until the electricity is turned on again.

If our blood stops flowing we break down in minutes due to the irreversible damage done by oxygen starvation. I guess the fact that computers don't suffer the same fate in the absence of electricity reflects the fact the we evolved but computers were designed in advance. We weren't planned and put together in advance and then "switched on". The blood (or more generally fluids) flowed from the very beginning. In the beginning, of course, the fluid was outside, and for many creatures still is. But we animals took some of that salty fluid and trapped it inside a semi-permeable bag of skin so we can carry our own little oceans around with us.

Yes, the design aspect is basically an evolutionary advancement. Life being able to consciously and deliberately extend on itself.

Water's "magic" is in its solubility. It's not nearly so productive in its steam or ice forms. You bring energy into the body in various packets (molecules) that water "opens up" and allows to be distributed, allowing from complexity. In a machine, electricity does the job of making things happen, acting as it does very much like water. Information can be carried around on anything that allows exchange of electrons.

Having said that, I guess some kind of analogy could be made with seeds: they can lie dormant for years until fluid is re-introduced and they spring to life.

I have a bit of a mad scientist idea about seeds and robots. When humanity meets its inevitable overheated end (hopefully millions of years hence) I can imagine there will be AI robots on the outer moons, using material scooped from the surface to 3D print synthetic life based on highly refined DNA templates. Basically they will be seeds at a larger (and more intelligent) scale.

-- Updated Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:31 am to add the following --

Some people have suggested that in lower temperature environments (e.g. Titan) liquid methane could perform a similar role. Maybe.

Since methane is only liquid at very cold temperatures, a long way from the Sun, there's not really enough energy available for complex life. A methanogenic life form would need to be huge in order to capture enough energy from the Sun. NASA's astrobiologist, Chris McKay, thinks such life might be huge flat goey sheets floating on the lake - lots of surface area with low energy needs. One exciting option might be the idea of hot watery hydrothermal vents in a methanogenic lake. No intelligence, though, alas.

Anyway, it can be interesting going through the "View Unread Posts" section. Occasional neglected threads that come alive after an early dormant period.

I see you actually beat me to the seed analogy. Watering neglected topics with the watering can of thought. Nice one.

Amazing the things clever things one can do when oblivious. I like that analogy. Do the posts promote growth or contraction? Is any given post a root, trunk, branch, a twig or a leaf? lol

[Steve3007]

On methane: It sounds like you've looked into this more than me (I haven't really looked into it much at all). But I wonder if methane based life, maybe even intelligent life, could exist but just develop, evolve and think much more slowly than our kind of life? But maybe then there wouldn't be enough time for it to evolve? Unless the planet/moon on which it existed was cold because it was in orbit around a very small, cold red or brown dwarf star which stayed stable for hundreds of billions of years, unlike the paltry 4 billion that we've had to evolve. Maybe the far distant future of the universe belongs to the methane based life. (And possibly those robots with their human seeds that you mentioned.)

[-1-]

But then computers are still just tools, not yet sentient,

Erm... what if our brains are just tools, too? A complex tool, but still, only a vehicle, a vessel for the soul to dwell in. (Soul being the mind, the consciousness.)

Did you ever hear a computer say, "I am absolutely parched, give me a drink of water!" Or maybe, "I had a really bad computing day in the lab today, pour me a shot of whisky!" Neither have I.

We can't fathom the needs of a computer until they start to communicate them to us.

Much like man has had no idea what a bug would want or need, as it won't communicate that to us. We see bugs like a dung beetle roll a ball of dung in front of it, but perhaps it would be happier with chocolate cake. Computers may be sentient, for all we know, with no or little capacity to communicate their needs. Or they may be sentient with NO needs.

In fact, I may start a thread with the topic, "it's not what we don't know about consciousness; it's what we do know", and go from there, like some well-brought up and proper logical positivists.

-- Updated 2017 April 10th, 9:23 pm to add the following --

I'm a step behind... there is a forum topic running currently already, "What is truly the Consciousness". Yay, the idea IS being explored.

[Sy Borg]

On methane: It sounds like you've looked into this more than me (I haven't really looked into it much at all). But I wonder if methane based life, maybe even intelligent life, could exist but just develop, evolve and think much more slowly than our kind of life? But maybe then there wouldn't be enough time for it to evolve? Unless the planet/moon on which it existed was cold because it was in orbit around a very small, cold red or brown dwarf star which stayed stable for hundreds of billions of years, unlike the paltry 4 billion that we've had to evolve. Maybe the far distant future of the universe belongs to the methane based life. (And possibly those robots with their human seeds that you mentioned.)

A confession: I have a roaring space and nature documentary habit. In fact, sped up footage of a creeping vine "climbing" up a tree to access more sunshine that I saw on an Attenborough special had me thinking that plants are already much slower life, so out methanogenic organisms might change at a leisurely tempo faster than geology but maybe slower than that of ice dwelling bacteria that spend centuries dormant. Fun idea to imagine such organisms evolving to eventually develop a space program over 200 billion years :)