Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Steve3007]

Most of us are used to the idea that certain concepts are so embedded in our models of the world that we think of them as being universal objective properties of the universe which all intelligent species with a taste for physics would stumble upon. Convergent evolution, as it were.

Energy is a good example. Energy is simply the result of various different mathematical equations that we have observed to be invariant with respect to time in closed physical systems. For example, in classical mechanics we observe that for any object moving in a uniform gravitational field the sum of this equation:

mgh

and this equation:

¹/₂mv²

is constant. So we call the first equation "potential energy" and the second one "kinetic energy" and declare that the sum of the two - the energy - is a "thing" a bit like matter. This is because we are intuitively used to the idea that a "thing" (matter) cannot just appear or disappear. It is conserved. These kinds of conservation laws are central to our particular type of physics.

But it's important to remember that we invented those equations and that therefore there is a sense in which we invented the concept of energy.

Questions:

If we started the process of developing our physics again, might we create a set of models that are just as useful in describing and predicting observations but which use concepts that are completely different from those such as energy that we use now? Might an alien race of physicists do this very thing?

Is there anything at all about our version of physics - perhaps the general idea of conservation laws for example - that we can confidently predict would be universal?

Would the type of physics developed by an alien race depend on their physical circumstances? We are air-breathing creatures who move across the solid surface of our planet. We detect our environment using a particular set of wavelengths of EM waves, vibrations in that air that we breath, chemical traces in that air and in other substances and the electrostatic repulsion of other objects (i.e sight, sound, smell, taste and touch). At night we can see the stars. During the day we can see the Sun. Do these kinds of things dictate our physics?

---

Note: mgh = mass X acceleration due to gravity X height

¹/₂mv² = half X mass X speed X speed

[Atreyu]

Some interesting questions.

If we started the process of developing our physics again, might we create a set of models that are just as useful in describing and predicting observations but which use concepts that are completely different from those such as energy that we use now? Might an alien race of physicists do this very thing?

An alien race of physicists perhaps would. It would depend on how different they are physiologically and psychologically constructed. But we would probably have the same general concepts again, since that is how our minds work. I don't think there would be any difference in the basic conceptualizations.

Is there anything at all about our version of physics - perhaps the general idea of conservation laws for example - that we can confidently predict would be universal?

I would think that all of us would confidently predict that the laws of physics are 'universal', i.e. that they apply everywhere, but this only applies to things taken on the same scale. For example, a law that applies to molecular and smaller particles would apply to molecules, atoms, and sub-atomic particles everywhere, and a law like gravity, that applies to large cosmic bodies, would apply to large cosmic bodies everywhere. I would assume this view would not be considered controversial by most people.

Would the type of physics developed by an alien race depend on their physical circumstances? We are air-breathing creatures who move across the solid surface of our planet. We detect our environment using a particular set of wavelengths of EM waves, vibrations in that air that we breath, chemical traces in that air and in other substances and the electrostatic repulsion of other objects (i.e sight, sound, smell, taste and touch). At night we can see the stars. During the day we can see the Sun. Do these kinds of things dictate our physics?

Of course they do. That is why I said above that it would depend on how different their physiological/psychological construction was. A fairly equal but quite different mind might have a very different set of conceptualizations which are just as practical and explanatory as our own. Also, a simpler mind would have a correspondingly more simple physics, and a more advanced mind would have a superior physics. For example, a more simple mind might be able to comprehend simple Newtonian mechanics, but not string theory or the space-time paradigm, while a more advanced mind might be able to formulate cosmic laws which apply on both the macro and micro scales, something which has thus far escaped modern physics.

But it seems the gist of your question revolves around universal laws and truths, as in: could there be any? I would say there is --- there is an completely absolute and objective way to model/explain the Universe --- however, such an explanation is absolutely beyond the capacity of Man. At best, we can have models/explanations which are more or less absolute/objective. An absolute model could only be conceived by an entity capable of being aware of the entire Universe at the most 'macro-level', i.e. from the most broad and encompassing view possible, and that entity could only be the Universe Itself, assuming such an entity actually exists (or could exist), i.e. that the Universe might be (or could become) a conscious entity....

[Burning ghost]

For starters we didnt invent the natural world. It is impossible that a physicist would not relate whatever concepts they have to the natural world so an alien physicist would be able to relate to our concepts abstractly at least.

Forget about alien races. If you could go back to the ancient world you wouldnt be able to convey certain concepts to them. As an example think of trying to explain writing to someone with no knowledge of writing whatsoever. They wouldnt be able to grasp the point of it. It would be too abstract for them to imagine some inaminate object "speaking" to them.

Also consider concepts you learnt when growing up. As an example think of the word "concept". When first introduced to this word you would try and adopt it into your everyday use. Most probably you would misuse this word by over extending or simply misplacing it. Over time, and correct by others, you would come to understand how to use it better and where and when to apply it.

Any alien concept in science relates to something natural. It may well be that some other intelligent life out there views energy form as distinct entities that change states. The underlying principle of the physics at work would remain the same though.

Concepts are used because they are useful to us. Those are not useful are quickly changed or forgotten. In science language and its use is very different from everyday speech as it is in philosophy. An alien language, we expect, would hold enough in common with our language so we could appreciate it as a language. If we could not then we wouldnt understand them.

-- Updated July 1st, 2016, 1:36 am to add the following --

Nearly forgot! Parts of what make up human language can be seen in various other creatures. It does not appear that all other creatures have the same complex amalgam that we do. I don't consider impossible that some alien lifeform has an even "greater" complexity of language, but I do consider it impossible for us to understand such a language anymore than any member of the animal kingdom can understand us humans.

[Mark1955]

Two obvious ways in which the answer is yes. We have moved from Newtonian physics to quantum physics and sort of got stuck there. Somewhere in the universe there may be aliens who still make do with Newtonian physics, alternately there may be aliens who have moved on to something we currently do not conceive of. Alternative two the "Laws" of physics don't actually apply across the whole universe it just looks like it to us from our single point of reference, therefore aliens living where the laws of physics are different might well have different concepts.

[The Beast]

What an Alien might know is part of Science Fiction. Imagining a shape shifting sea that can read your mind and make your most recondite desires come true. (Stanislaw Lem: Solaris). Most think of Hal in the 2001 Odyssey, but the real achievement is “Guardian stones”. A trigger mechanism to attract quanta from the surroundings and make a different reality. “New planets for us”.We just don’t know about the Alien technology. McGrinder said it is possible but, he just don’t know. This design from McGrinder qualifies as Alien Technology for the simple reason that stops at design. The next step of measure is not addressed. The shape shifting R6 has at least some type of measurement of geometrical substance. I think of McGrinder as more Alien technology than R6.

[Felix]

But it's important to remember that we invented those equations and that therefore there is a sense in which we invented the concept of energy.

I wouldn't say we "invented" it but that we recognized or discovered those patterns in nature. As to your other points, this essay by Nicholas Rescher on this topic is the best analysis I've read: https://goo.gl/ewrtNz

[Sy Borg]

I can imagine the strong nuclear force being interpreted as gravity behaving differently at the subatomic scale.

[Ormond]

I favor the view that our minds see a small slice of reality, much as our eyes see only a small slice of the electro-magnetic spectrum.

So I would guess that aliens might use concepts similar to ours to describe the slice of reality that we see, while using concepts utterly foreign to us to describe what lies outside of that small slice.

[A Poster He or I]

We have well-documented accounts of synaesthesiacs who "see" numbers and equations as patterns of color. In certain synaesthesiacs combined with Asperger syndrome, solving these equations does not involve numerical calculation but a form of native intuition that is as fast as any computer. Don't believe me? Look up Daniel Tammet.

These people are humans whose brains work differently. The only reasons they "need" numbers are cultural. So just imagine an entire alien species where the normal brains are wired like a synaesthesiac/Asperger human brain. It then becomes easy to imagine a species who develop physics without numbers but as a form of art, for example. I imagine that such a species would not conceive of universal "laws" because the equivalent gestalts would be entirely intuitive, akin to the autonomic activities of humans.

[Atreyu]

We have well-documented accounts of synaesthesiacs who "see" numbers and equations as patterns of color. In certain synaesthesiacs combined with Asperger syndrome, solving these equations does not involve numerical calculation but a form of native intuition that is as fast as any computer. Don't believe me? Look up Daniel Tammet.

These people are humans whose brains work differently. The only reasons they "need" numbers are cultural. So just imagine an entire alien species where the normal brains are wired like a synaesthesiac/Asperger human brain. It then becomes easy to imagine a species who develop physics without numbers but as a form of art, for example. I imagine that such a species would not conceive of universal "laws" because the equivalent gestalts would be entirely intuitive, akin to the autonomic activities of humans.

Your post is interesting to me because it reminds of a kid I knew back in high school.

He was in the 'slow' class, 9th grade, I think. Just some 'retarted' kid who got made fun of a lot. Probably would be diagnosed as 'autistic' or 'aspergers' today. One day, in study hall, a friend of mine told me that this kid could tell you what day of the week it was corresponding to any date you gave him, even if it was hundreds of years old, or even in the future. Naturally, I was skeptical but soon the kid came in and sat down by us and my friend challenged me to ask him.

I asked him to tell me what was the day of the week on... and I spit out some arbitrary date about a month or so in the past. He got it right. Then I spit out another, and another, these several months back. He got all of them right as well. Shocked, I then gave him some dates years in the past, a few in the 1700's and 1800's, and a couple in the early 2000's (which was the future then, as this was 1981). Later, I discovered that he was right about every date. I was shocked, but like everyone else then, I just laughed about it, and was amazed by it, but eventually just sort of 'forgot' about it and moved on.

But people like this definitely show us the potential of the human mind. And I can only imagine this kid doing this by using some kind of method such as you have described. Obviously, he wasn't calculating the day, he was intuiting it somehow. I remember that, right after I would give him a date, he would seem to be pondering something, looking inward, but just for a very brief second. Then he spit out the answer. It seemed more like he was conjuring up a feeling, and thinking about it gives me the impression of someone remembering something in their personal past. It was as if he was sort of just allowing his mind to open and then the answer just came in. Or like he was asking someone inside himself what the answer was, and then that someone quickly told him the answer, which he then repeated. But he clearly was not thinking about it, like you might if I asked you to tell me what 395 + 481 was.

[A Poster He or I]

But he clearly was not thinking about it, like you might if I asked you to tell me what 395 + 481 was.

395 + 481 = a slightly grayish shade of burnt orange.

[Skydude]

Making the assumption that both we and the aliens are correct in our observations and calculations. There could be multiple different ways of interpreting the same phenomena which would largely be Dependant on the minds of the creatures witnessing such events, the question can have many different explenations: One is the aliens are enough like us that they develop similar senses of the reality around them and similar ways of explaining that reality through written language and numbers. Another is that they communicate in entirely different ways as was stated before such as artwork representing certain events in the universe. For all we know some of them may communicate like they do in the movie avatar, where there neural pathways can connect together to share memories and emotions eliminating the need for a symbolic language at all.

[Present awareness]

Things are as they are, regardless of how we interpret them. Humans use different sounds for the same object (language), so regardless of the concept, nothing changes.

[Skydude]

Things are as they are, regardless of how we interpret them. Humans use different sounds for the same object (language), so regardless of the concept, nothing changes.

I agree, that is an excellent way of explaining it.

[A Poster He or I]

Present awareness wrote:
Things are as they are, regardless of how we interpret them. Humans use different sounds for the same object (language), so regardless of the concept, nothing changes.

Skydude wrote: I agree, that is an excellent way of explaining it.

In light of all the empirical evidence supporting the Sapir-Worf hypothesis, and how "things are as they are" includes interpretation as a thing too, I find your position untenable.