Philosophy Discussion Forums

Ahh… again I come up with my supernaturals, that posters of this forums rarely responded, but this time I dare it to give in Science section. This is my first topic in Science section.

I had been reading reincarnation cases(stories) examined by very credible scientists ( I hope you too consider them as such) since 4-5 days, and many of them is really interesting that led me scratch my head and wonder, and ask myself that how it could these cases could be so convincing and propagated by credible scientists.

Well, you can refer to these interesting stories in below link:-

http://www.iisis.net/index.php?page=sem ... e&hl=en_US

If you don’t want to read the stories there, or not interested, here is the overview of different stories what they are like, and why I believe them to be very convincing, presupposing that no one can say the Scientists or Psychologists are just lying.

There are many reincarnation stories, but those which I found interesting and wonderful, considering Psychologists are not lying or making up stories and trying their best to not include frauds, is as follows:-

• Child (about 2-7 of age in every strong cases, IMO) continuing their previous birth religious belief, even being born in different religion in current birth, like child observing Namaz(Muslim prayer) even being born in Hindu family, or denying eating beef (Hindus don’t eat beef) and going to mosque and laughing on Islamic rituals even being born in Muslim Family.
  
  Child talking in language of previous life, in this life even not being exposed to that language by any means, even the language of another distant country.
  
  Children describing the Holocaust about the Nazi camp and Gas chamber and all other scenes perfectly, within the age of 2-7 years old, even they had never been in those countries.
  
  Child claiming that he is from Black community of Africa even being born in Europe to white parents, and saying that his wife is half naked with long hanging breast and was beautiful, and have the previous life talent like climbing trees, playing drum with intricate knowledge of rhythms etc.
  
  Muslims accepting reincarnation of their relative, while side by side saying that they don’t believe in reincarnation.

So there are so many cases of these Reincarnation types. If I can specifically say, I liked the story of Anne Frank/Barbro Karlen, Sharada/Uttara Huddar, Naval Dal/An Arabic girl speaking Indian language. So this is the stories appears, along with many of them remembering their previous life and saying that they already had been in previous life, and correctly describing their parents name which are verified, even when they have never been their by any way, and the previous life story had been hundred of years ago and so.

So this surprises me. As per my opinion, we have only two options for denying these cases, which is, either we should consider that Scientists or Psychologists are lying and deliberately creating stories, which we cannot observe by ourselves, by indulging in their respective researches, even when they are head of department (HOD) in reputable university, OR creating possible denying theory or hypothesis that can be possible to deny their findings.

So I would like to ask for the possible other hypothesis of possibility to explain, that can suggest the findings are false and are all all made up.

So please suggest the reasons with hypothesis, to deny the practical findings, or say they are making up stories or gullible, in which case you have prove that by reasoning.

Well I know that sometimes, showing teeth and denying outright is more logical than trying to explain and denying logically, but I don’t regard that nature to be logical, and I am of such a nature, that I like to get confused and made to doubt, and answer the question or puzzle logically. Thus I want answer of these occurrence logically, by either saying it is all lying, OR it can have other hypothesis which can deny this. So try for at least one.

Thank You, Okisites, but you have to prove each of them, what you claim.

I'm aware of such studies, but if anything, they prove that extrasensory perception, not reincarnation, is possible, i.e., they demonstrate that one can psychically obtain information about some person or event, but they don't prove that one was the person one obtained the information about.

Felix,

I think you are going the right way, as per the OP question. You just need to better explain the theory about "extrasensory perception".

What is "Extrasensory Perception"? and how it explains the phenomena?

Please broaden your explanation of the phenomena so that it will be convincing, and fairly elaborated, and connect to every aspect of it.

Thanks for taking it seriously and logically. Okisites

I don't think the scientists were lying nor was anyone necessarily being dishonest. And I must admit that given the information I don't have a good hypothesis or explanation for those stories. But I question explaining them by reincarnation. Special psychic states don't imply reincarnation to me.

I actually think that reincarnation is an absolute impossibility based on my knowledge of higher dimensional theory. I don't think it's possible for anyone to become someone else, nor do I think it's possible for the dead to go on living "after their time (has expired). Once their time is up, it's up. But they certainly could go on living after their deaths, but only in their respective "time". So if a man is born in 1953 and dies in 2020, if he goes on living after death it will be in that same time frame. In other words, life is cyclical, not linear. This theory is called 'recurrence' (life 'recurs').

From all my life's study and experience, I've concluded that the theory of recurrence is more ancient than the idea of reincarnation, and that the latter was merely an adaptation of the former, done for various reasons.

To generation X .

We are born and taught our personal views as they relate to reincarnation. As I questioned my own beliefs I came to the conclusion that we’ve been wired to reincarnation. The most crude and ancient form of reincarnation is animism. A more modern tradition would be quantum animism. Phrases related to animism are: The ghost in the machine; empty vessels; possessions…etc. An early group of Christians believed in reincarnation much the same as Muslims do. Anyway, Rabbi Jesus did expel unclean spirits from humans so that the real spirit could come forward in the form of a believer. Reincarnation do take social forms when we talk about “the office” as we substitute the vessel for the office then we’ll see the relevance. The office of the President… the Pope… The Dalai Lama…etc. Feelings could take a similar but different form as we humans have capacities that are unknown. So, Is the feeling of a brother the same to you that it is to me? The feeling of the brother reincarnates and many would like it to be Universal as we are all brothers… we all have the same Mother and the same Father just like the Genesis said. It is true that a jealous brother reincarnates and that a jealous brother is the same as another jealous brother. The culture of jealousy is a science and a well trained eye could see differences in the green and assign the proper weapon and training. Finally and among many others is Tradition. A monk is a monk that moves the same way and does the same things as Loyola did. After many years he could be confused with Loyola himself unless he learned a little thing Loyola did not know. Then, he is free…or not… he’s free… or not…he’s freee…or nottt.

"What is Extrasensory Perception?"

Okisites, the answer is in the word: "extra" = beyond or added to, and "sensory" = pertaining to the physical senses (i.e., visual, auditory and tactile). So extrasensory perception would be acquiring information without physically sensing it (seeing or hearing it), e.g., obtaining specific knowledge of events that one has not and could not have experienced, such as in the "reincarnation" cases you listed.

An example of ESP (ExtraSensory Perception) would be having a vision of an event that has not occurred yet (this is called precognition). Let's say you had booked an airplane flight and the night before your planned departure, you had an extremely vivid vision of the plane you are to board crashing. You heed your intuition and cancel your reservation. Later the next day you're watching the TV news and see that the plane you were scheduled to take did indeed crash and all the passengers on it were killed. What's more, the photographs taken of the scene of the crash site match those you saw in your precognitive vision.

Atreyu wrote:Special psychic states don't imply reincarnation to me.

Well it is not just psychic, but it also physical appearances, like the reincarnated person almost look a like a person he claim to be in previous life, when the facial features of photo examined. Previous birth marks also appears in current birth, and also if a person died by murder, accident then the wound made at the time of accident, murder exactly appears in the same in current birth. Plus they remember the past lives exactly, and have a similar talents, as of previous.

I actually think that reincarnation is an absolute impossibility based on my knowledge of higher dimensional theory. I don't think it's possible for anyone to become someone else, nor do I think it's possible for the dead to go on living "after their time (has expired). Once their time is up, it's up. But they certainly could go on living after their deaths, but only in their respective "time". So if a man is born in 1953 and dies in 2020, if he goes on living after death it will be in that same time frame. In other words, life is cyclical, not linear. This theory is called 'recurrence' (life 'recurs').

From all my life's study and experience, I've concluded that the theory of recurrence is more ancient than the idea of reincarnation, and that the latter was merely an adaptation of the former, done for various reasons.

I don’t know about higher dimensional theory, and how it proves its impossibility, but it seems that these cases rely on exceptional characteristic, not just past life memories, like talking in different language, birth marks, geographical memory of the place where the person never had been in the life time, knowing unpopular places with details.

Note that:- This is also be sometimes deliberately done by hypnosis, where hypnotized person talks in different language, but this method does not seems to convincing enough. By this I only mean reincarnation can also be ascertained by another way, though I have somewhere read that Ian Stevensen found this method not convincing enough.

Felix wrote:
Okisites, the answer is in the word: "extra" = beyond or added to, and "sensory" = pertaining to the physical senses (i.e., visual, auditory and tactile). So extrasensory perception would be acquiring information without physically sensing it (seeing or hearing it), e.g., obtaining specific knowledge of events that one has not and could not have experienced, such as in the "reincarnation" cases you listed.

I would like to believe in your proposition, but not in the way you have propounded i.e. it should actually in the form of theory at least, at most it should be in the form of well founded research including conclusion towards validation of this proposition. So may I ask you where can I find fully elaborated theory, which can dismiss the idea of reincarnation, and replacing it with itself. I am sorry, but Is it your own theory? (which I respect, but you have to explain it properly over the theory of reincarnation).

An example of ESP (ExtraSensory Perception) would be having a vision of an event that has not occurred yet (this is called precognition). Let's say you had booked an airplane flight and the night before your planned departure, you had an extremely vivid vision of the plane you are to board crashing. You heed your intuition and cancel your reservation. Later the next day you're watching the TV news and see that the plane you were scheduled to take did indeed crash and all the passengers on it were killed. What's more, the photographs taken of the scene of the crash site match those you saw in your precognitive vision.

I like this kind of ideas, and if you can suggest me such kind of studies, I will very grateful(most probably) to you, really. Actually you have given the example of a film, that I had seen but could not remember the name. I am searching if this can happen in reality, as suggested in film, from a long time. I am open to this kind of idea. We have this kind of film in our language too, that talks about the prior knowledge or vision of future events, but I do not know what is the psychological term for it(if it is psychology related). Can you suggest me the scientific term that can be used to search this kind of studies? Is it called extrasensory perception.

But I would like to tell, I want it in theory form, or at least in good explanation, if it is your own theory or hypothesis.

Well, at last, how can it overcome the reincarnation theory.

The Beast wrote:To generation X .

We are born and taught our personal views as they relate to reincarnation. As I questioned my own beliefs I came to the conclusion that we’ve been wired to reincarnation. The most crude and ancient form of reincarnation is animism. A more modern tradition would be quantum animism. Phrases related to animism are: The ghost in the machine; empty vessels; possessions…etc. An early group of Christians believed in reincarnation much the same as Muslims do. Anyway, Rabbi Jesus did expel unclean spirits from humans so that the real spirit could come forward in the form of a believer. Reincarnation do take social forms when we talk about “the office” as we substitute the vessel for the office then we’ll see the relevance. The office of the President… the Pope… The Dalai Lama…etc. Feelings could take a similar but different form as we humans have capacities that are unknown. So, Is the feeling of a brother the same to you that it is to me? The feeling of the brother reincarnates and many would like it to be Universal as we are all brothers… we all have the same Mother and the same Father just like the Genesis said. It is true that a jealous brother reincarnates and that a jealous brother is the same as another jealous brother. The culture of jealousy is a science and a well trained eye could see differences in the green and assign the proper weapon and training. Finally and among many others is Tradition. A monk is a monk that moves the same way and does the same things as Loyola did. After many years he could be confused with Loyola himself unless he learned a little thing Loyola did not know. Then, he is free…or not… he’s free… or not…he’s freee…or nottt.

I suppose you are agreeing with the idea of Reincarnation.

Okay “The Beast”, I have some suggestion for you, and I would like if you’ll take it constructively, that your replies are really very confusing and messed up in one paragraph. I suppose that nobody can understand what you’re trying to say, and will not get one idea of what you are saying. Your ideas are all messed in one place that are unable to understand and maybe possibly it doesn’t convey any idea, but just a talk.

I sometimes guessed that your replies resembles a good thinker, and all what lacks in your replies is you do not properly convey your ideas, but just say whatever comes to your mind. I am sorry to explain you all this, but you can do better if you’ll try to convey your ideas or messages clearly without anybody being confused, then I think you are really a productive thinker and contributor to the topics at hand.

Thank you, I am sorry I am suggesting you something that nobody probably likes.

Okisites.

Okisites said: "I like this kind of ideas, and if you can suggest me such kind of studies"

I can recommend the works of Rupert Sheldrake: http://www.amazon.cm/Rupert-Sheldrake/e/B000AQ3F38/

"I am searching if this can happen in reality, as suggested in the film"

It does happen and cases of it are well documented (actually my mother had such experiences on a few occasions, one such intuition saved my life). It's just not something that can be dissected in a laboratory. What was the film about that you saw? I might know it.

"which can dismiss the idea of reincarnation"

I'm not dismising the idea, simply saying that there are credible alternative explanations.

Reincarnation is false because it sticks with the ordinary view of one's lifetime as linear, when in fact it's cyclical. And this is false because it's based on a model of time as being one dimension of higher space when in fact it must be more.

When one plots a man's life on a timeline, one ordinarily would draw a line segment, with the left most point being labeled 'birth' and the right most point being labeled 'death'. All the points in between would represent the moments of the man's life. If the line continued left of 'birth', that would represent the past before the man was born, before he came into existence. And it could possibly have an infinite distance, if the Universe had no beginning. If the line continues after the point 'death', that would represent the future after the man died, which also could possibly be of infinite length if the Universe has no end. And so everyone's life is represented by a line segment of various lengths, depending on how long each person lived. And if these lines overlap, people are alive at the same moment and can see and know each other. This is the linear model.

In reincarnation, it is somehow posited that a person can somehow 'jump' from one line segment to another at death, from one right most point to another's left most point, no matter the distance. So in this linear view a man could die on Aug 2, 2014, and then be 'reborn' at that exact same moment, or perhaps in the past, or in the future. Perhaps he will be 'reborn' in the year 2020, and perhaps even as an entirely different organism -- a frog, a fish, a deer, whatever. As if one can somehow 'jump' from line segment to line segment, across time, across species, going from one life to another.

But this view is incorrect because it doesn't take what we know about higher dimensional theory into account. Taking it into account gives us a cyclical model of one's life, represented by a circle rather than a line segment. In this model, we draw a circle with a point at the bottom labeled 'birth/death'. Each point on the circle also represents each moment of a man's life, just as in the linear model. But in this model no 'jump' is possible, or if it is, it is a more complex affair which I won't delineate here.

In this model a man is born, then goes round the circle, 'peaks' at the top, then 'declines' and matures, eventually coming back again to the point at the bottom of the circle. The particulars of how a man's awareness somehow 'crosses' that bottom point and is "recycled", and somehow "goes back in time" is a complex matter I'll skip for now. Nonetheless, the man is born again and once again he travels the circle. Other circles around him which cross his represents other lifes with which he can make contact, for they exist in the same 'general time'. All of the circles are drawn in the higher dimensions of space, which we call 'time'. So a man goes round and round in his 'circle of time', being born again and again at the same time, and dying over and over and about the same time.

However, the circles need not be flat and can curve up and down, can be spirals. So in this view each life need not be exactly the same, only generally the same. What one does in this life can affect his next life, just as in the idea of reincarnation. So in the next life all the "big" things will "recur" again. You will be born at the same time, with the same parents, the same siblings, the same color eyes and hair, the same genetic makeup, the same general tendencies, physiological and psychological. Your country and hometown will still exist, as will your religion. History will be the same. There will be cars and houses. If you're born with no legs, again you'll be born with no legs.

But as the circles are not drawn on a flat surface, but in three dimensions of higher space, changes can occur. "Tendencies" carry over each time round the circle. So If a man has the "tendency" to work hard in school, and to be successful and make money, the next time round the circle he will be even more "predisposed" to work hard, and may even achieve bigger results. Or if the man is lazy and does not apply himself, the next time he goes round the circle he will be even more likely to be lazy. Your circle can "spiral up" or "spiral down" so to speak, since they exist in three dimensions, not a flat surface. And this model is called "'recurrence".

The reincarnation model does not take into account all we know about so called "space-time", or higher dimensions of space. In that model, everything is on a flat surface and one must "jump around", go above the surface, and the somehow "hop" onto another line segment. But we know that this is not so, everything cannot be drawn on a flat surface because time is curved, it represents more than just one dimension. In the model of recurrence we take that into account and draw circles in three dimensions of space (which for us are 'time'). So you can "build up" changes from life to life without "hopping around" the Universe becoming giraffes and salamanders, or existing in other places and times.

Okisites wrote:

I suppose you are agreeing with the idea of Reincarnation.

Okay “The Beast”, I have some suggestion for you, and I would like if you’ll take it constructively, that your replies are really very confusing and messed up in one paragraph. I suppose that nobody can understand what you’re trying to say, and will not get one idea of what you are saying. Your ideas are all messed in one place that are unable to understand and maybe possibly it doesn’t convey any idea, but just a talk.

I sometimes guessed that your replies resembles a good thinker, and all what lacks in your replies is you do not properly convey your ideas, but just say whatever comes to your mind. I am sorry to explain you all this, but you can do better if you’ll try to convey your ideas or messages clearly without anybody being confused, then I think you are really a productive thinker and contributor to the topics at hand.

Thank you, I am sorry I am suggesting you something that nobody probably likes.

Okisites. Okisites. It is clear to me. We do not share styles. We must then concentrate on what is common to our understanding. My knowledge of the subject is extensive but I do offer: my opinion as is...precisely. Regards.

Felix wrote:

Okisites wrote: "which can dismiss the idea of reincarnation"

I'm not dismising the idea, simply saying that there are credible alternative explanations.

Please explain that credible alternative explanation, in your words and understanding, as best as possible for you. This is the topic is for.

Atreyu wrote:Reincarnation is false because it sticks with the ordinary view of one's lifetime as linear, when in fact it's cyclical. And this is false because it's based on a model of time as being one dimension of higher space when in fact it must be more.

When one plots a man's life on a timeline, one ordinarily would draw a line segment, with the left most point being labeled 'birth' and the right most point being labeled 'death'. All the points in between would represent the moments of the man's life. If the line continued left of 'birth', that would represent the past before the man was born, before he came into existence. And it could possibly have an infinite distance, if the Universe had no beginning. If the line continues after the point 'death', that would represent the future after the man died, which also could possibly be of infinite length if the Universe has no end. And so everyone's life is represented by a line segment of various lengths, depending on how long each person lived. And if these lines overlap, people are alive at the same moment and can see and know each other. This is the linear model.

In reincarnation, it is somehow posited that a person can somehow 'jump' from one line segment to another at death, from one right most point to another's left most point, no matter the distance. So in this linear view a man could die on Aug 2, 2014, and then be 'reborn' at that exact same moment, or perhaps in the past, or in the future. Perhaps he will be 'reborn' in the year 2020, and perhaps even as an entirely different organism -- a frog, a fish, a deer, whatever. As if one can somehow 'jump' from line segment to line segment, across time, across species, going from one life to another.

But this view is incorrect because it doesn't take what we know about higher dimensional theory into account. Taking it into account gives us a cyclical model of one's life, represented by a circle rather than a line segment. In this model, we draw a circle with a point at the bottom labeled 'birth/death'. Each point on the circle also represents each moment of a man's life, just as in the linear model. But in this model no 'jump' is possible, or if it is, it is a more complex affair which I won't delineate here.

In this model a man is born, then goes round the circle, 'peaks' at the top, then 'declines' and matures, eventually coming back again to the point at the bottom of the circle. The particulars of how a man's awareness somehow 'crosses' that bottom point and is "recycled", and somehow "goes back in time" is a complex matter I'll skip for now. Nonetheless, the man is born again and once again he travels the circle. Other circles around him which cross his represents other lifes with which he can make contact, for they exist in the same 'general time'. All of the circles are drawn in the higher dimensions of space, which we call 'time'. So a man goes round and round in his 'circle of time', being born again and again at the same time, and dying over and over and about the same time.

However, the circles need not be flat and can curve up and down, can be spirals. So in this view each life need not be exactly the same, only generally the same. What one does in this life can affect his next life, just as in the idea of reincarnation. So in the next life all the "big" things will "recur" again. You will be born at the same time, with the same parents, the same siblings, the same color eyes and hair, the same genetic makeup, the same general tendencies, physiological and psychological. Your country and hometown will still exist, as will your religion. History will be the same. There will be cars and houses. If you're born with no legs, again you'll be born with no legs.

But as the circles are not drawn on a flat surface, but in three dimensions of higher space, changes can occur. "Tendencies" carry over each time round the circle. So If a man has the "tendency" to work hard in school, and to be successful and make money, the next time round the circle he will be even more "predisposed" to work hard, and may even achieve bigger results. Or if the man is lazy and does not apply himself, the next time he goes round the circle he will be even more likely to be lazy. Your circle can "spiral up" or "spiral down" so to speak, since they exist in three dimensions, not a flat surface. And this model is called "'recurrence".

The reincarnation model does not take into account all we know about so called "space-time", or higher dimensions of space. In that model, everything is on a flat surface and one must "jump around", go above the surface, and the somehow "hop" onto another line segment. But we know that this is not so, everything cannot be drawn on a flat surface because time is curved, it represents more than just one dimension. In the model of recurrence we take that into account and draw circles in three dimensions of space (which for us are 'time'). So you can "build up" changes from life to life without "hopping around" the Universe becoming giraffes and salamanders, or existing in other places and times.

I think you are probably positing to Reincarnation, rather than denying it, as you somehow explaining "born and born again" kind of thing. I probably understands that your explanation might contain critical insights in the subject, but I also noticed that you actually heavily and intensely subscribed to the idea of Higher dimensional Theory, and probably emotionally connected to it.

Secondly, I think that just because you say that Reincarnation Theory does not confirm to Higher Dimensional Theory, it is deemed to be incorrect, is actually could be incorrect conclusion, because these two things may be from different aspects of reality, which does not work and include other. For example, let say that there are three theories in entire universe. One with on physical existence, second is only with conceptual existence, and the third is physical+conceptual existence. And all of these three things do not necessarily confirm each other. Therefore it maybe possible that your theory, or the theory you are subscribed to, is actually one of its kind, which do not necessarily confirm the other kind. So I am confused, whether your subscribed theory really can be used to verify all other.

Just like mathematics is not born out of Physics, nor Physics is born out of Mathematics, but both of them claim their own existence successfully before the other at the same time, as they cannot be without each other.

So in my humble opinion, it is possible that your subscribed theory is not really in position to actually verify my or Scientists understand, nor vice versa, and all of them stands on their own, and/or greater and broader view of the reality than this one.

So I will suggest verify if it can be true and suitable with this case of ours, or better explain your position.

Thank you, Okisites.

The Beast wrote:

Okisites wrote:
I suppose you are agreeing with the idea of Reincarnation.

Okay “The Beast”, I have some suggestion for you, and I would like if you’ll take it constructively, that your replies are really very confusing and messed up in one paragraph. I suppose that nobody can understand what you’re trying to say, and will not get one idea of what you are saying. Your ideas are all messed in one place that are unable to understand and maybe possibly it doesn’t convey any idea, but just a talk.

I sometimes guessed that your replies resembles a good thinker, and all what lacks in your replies is you do not properly convey your ideas, but just say whatever comes to your mind. I am sorry to explain you all this, but you can do better if you’ll try to convey your ideas or messages clearly without anybody being confused, then I think you are really a productive thinker and contributor to the topics at hand.

Thank you, I am sorry I am suggesting you something that nobody probably likes.

Okisites. Okisites. It is clear to me. We do not share styles. We must then concentrate on what is common to our understanding. My knowledge of the subject is extensive but I do offer: my opinion as is...precisely. Regards.

Please offer your knowledge in extensive manner, rather than precisely, and be in line and perfection with the subject in such a way that everybody must understand, what you wanted to say. Please. I do understand, that you are very good with your understanding somewhere, but your expressing style lacks too much of things, I feel.

Please explain your knowledge extensively, rather than precisely.

Thank you, Okisites.

I said : “We are born and taught our personal views as they relate to reincarnation. As I questioned my own beliefs I came to the conclusion that we’ve been wired to reincarnation.” My interest in Reincarnation is anthropological. From an evolutionary point of view man came out of Africa and to India where Metempsychosis is termed Sansara. I feel that the Egyptian form is somewhat more ancient as they relate more to biosemiotics. Based in Zoosemiotics and quorum sensing I stated that we’ve been wired to reincarnation. I am at this point recognizing Hegel idea of Gestalt as a starting point to claim claircognizance from energy or what the Greeks call Eudaimonia in a retro view of evolutionary history.

People are living longer...so that puts things out of sync with Atreyu's perspective, that all things are in their own time frame. I think if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks...its more than likely its a duck. If it were anything else, then it would remember other things from other places related to another being. Jesus must also have believed in reincarnation...When he made his prophecies he did say....'there are those of you here today who shall not taste of death, untill all these things come true'.

The Beast wrote:I said : “We are born and taught our personal views as they relate to reincarnation. As I questioned my own beliefs I came to the conclusion that we’ve been wired to reincarnation.” My interest in Reincarnation is anthropological. From an evolutionary point of view man came out of Africa and to India where Metempsychosis is termed Sansara. I feel that the Egyptian form is somewhat more ancient as they relate more to biosemiotics. Based in Zoosemiotics and quorum sensing I stated that we’ve been wired to reincarnation. I am at this point recognizing Hegel idea of Gestalt as a starting point to claim claircognizance from energy or what the Greeks call Eudaimonia in a retro view of evolutionary history.

I think, you have read much, as I have do not understand the term like, Metempsychosis(I think it has been gone somewhere with me), and biosemiotics, zoosemiotics, claircognizance, eudaimonia, OMGoodness, I have never heard these world. I am sorry, I cannot understand your view on reincarnation.

I understand that you might seems to agree with the possibility of reincarnation, given the examples in OP.

Would you like to elaborate on more of your understandings, though I probably do not understands or know about very much.

Simply Wee wrote:People are living longer...so that puts things out of sync with Atreyu's perspective, that all things are in their own time frame. I think if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks...its more than likely its a duck. If it were anything else, then it would remember other things from other places related to another being. Jesus must also have believed in reincarnation...When he made his prophecies he did say....'there are those of you here today who shall not taste of death, untill all these things come true'.

I think, you also believes in Reincarnation, and I believe you considered the point, that child talking in other language, remembering other geographical knowledge of the place he/she had never been, or such.

Thank you, please elaborate, whats your thinking about the subject. Okisites.

'No-one possesses it entirely and all participate in it. It is so completely independent of the particular subjects in whom it incarnates itself, that it precedes them and survives them. Individuals die, generations pass and are replaced by others; but this force always remains actual, living and the same. It animates the generations of today as it animated those of yesterday and as it will animate those of tomorrow. The totem is the symbol of two different sorts of things; first the outward and visible form of what we call totemic principle or God. Secondly it is the symbol of a determined society called the clan. It is its flag, with which the clan distinguishes its own personal mark born out of everything else from which the clan is part of. For does society not have a nature to itself and different from our individual nature. It pursues ends which are likewise special to it; but as it cannot attain them except through our intermediacy, it imperiously demands our aid. It requires that forgetful of our own interests we make ourselves its servitors, and it submits us to every sort of inconvenience, privation and sacrifice, without which social life would be impossible. It is because of this that the totem is like the visible form of God, in that it represents the personality of the clan to whom the individual must serve, but more than this, it represents the clans part of all things of which include all that is known and unknown, or indeed has yet to come. Therefore it is from it that those kindly or dreadful actions seem to emanate, which the cult seeks to provoke and prevent; consequently, it is to it that the cult is addressed. This is the explanation of why it holds the first place in a series of sacred things. The principal itself is conceived under an animal form, and so if men are to regard animals as their brother, it would be as their older brother. Because such a sacred character is contagious it spreads out from the totemic being to everything that is closely or remotely connected to it, subtotems are added to it along the way eventually to take on what is perceived as its highest forms, some heavenly bodies for instance, eventually reaching the highest. The world is now divided up among the totemic principles of each tribe, these religious forces are physical and human, moral as well as material, moral only by the way the collective consciousness acts upon the individual consciousness. Each only one form of authority, and having been conceived under material forms, they are also regarded as material things. Therefore they dominate the two worlds, their residence is in men but at the same time they are the vital principles of things. They animate minds and discipline them, but it is also they who make plants grow and animals reproduce. It is this double nature which has enabled religion to be like the womb from which come all of the leading germs of human civilisation. Since it has been made to embrace all of reality, the physical world as well as the moral one, the forces that move bodies as well as those that move minds have been conceived in a religious form. That is how the most diverse methods and practices, both those that make possible the continuation of the moral life (laws, morals beaux-arts) and those serving the material life (the natural, technical, and practical sciences) are either directly or indirectly derived from religion'.

If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say we have found such a force, both the bible and the scientists call it the almighty ghost, but we view it's effects from a distance as that of dark matter. Reincarnation is just another ghost belonging to it. I guess.