Philosophy Discussion Forums

Gertie wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2020, 5:38 pm There is no such physicalist explanation for conscious experience. No-one knows what such an explanation might in principle be, or what to look for. That is why it is called The Hard Problem. And why simply assuming conscious experience is an emergent property of material processes/connections isn't justified.

We all have an informal understanding of consciousness, which is adequate for simple and general everyday purposes. But, if we wish to discuss it in a philosophy forum like this one, it quickly becomes clear that we can't even define what we mean by it, much less discuss its nature. Consciousness is a fascinating thing to think about, but we're not yet ready to discuss it formally; we're farther back in the process than that. We can muse, but that's about all we can do at this stage. And musing doesn't go down well with sciencists, who require that everything is formal and well-defined before discussion can commence.

For these reasons, I can't see the point in discussing consciousness here. There is no room or tolerance here for musing, sadly.

Atla wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2020, 12:36 pm ...discussing emergence in the context of the Hard problem of consciousness.

The problem of why probability functions coollapse in response to being observed by a conscious entity is a fascinating one. But the one that appeals to me, personally, is the modified double-slit experiment. I expect you're aware of it.

In the modified experiment, photons are passed through the experimental apparatus one at a time. Each individual photon apparently passes through both slits at the same time, and then interferes with itself, producing the characteristic interference pattern in the detectors. That one I find delightful! And perplexing too....

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 12:08 pm

Atla wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2020, 12:36 pm ...discussing emergence in the context of the Hard problem of consciousness.

The problem of why probability functions coollapse in response to being observed by a conscious entity is a fascinating one. But the one that appeals to me, personally, is the modified double-slit experiment. I expect you're aware of it.

In the modified experiment, photons are passed through the experimental apparatus one at a time. Each individual photon apparently passes through both slits at the same time, and then interferes with itself, producing the characteristic interference pattern in the detectors. That one I find delightful! And perplexing too....

Wavefuntion collapse is probably
- unrelated to the Hard problem of consciousness
- unrelated to emergence
- unrelated to 'conscious entities', that's quantum woo
(and you said you're not discussing consciousness)

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 12:08 pm The problem of why probability functions coollapse in response to being observed by a conscious entity is a fascinating one. But the one that appeals to me, personally, is the modified double-slit experiment. I expect you're aware of it.

In the modified experiment, photons are passed through the experimental apparatus one at a time. Each individual photon apparently passes through both slits at the same time, and then interferes with itself, producing the characteristic interference pattern in the detectors. That one I find delightful! And perplexing too....

Atla wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 12:32 pm Wavefunction collapse is probably unrelated to the Hard problem of consciousness

...and yet it takes (as far as we know or understand) a conscious observer to cause the collapse.

Atla wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 12:32 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 12:08 pm The problem of why probability functions collapse in response to being observed by a conscious entity is a fascinating one. But the one that appeals to me, personally, is the modified double-slit experiment. I expect you're aware of it.

In the modified experiment, photons are passed through the experimental apparatus one at a time. Each individual photon apparently passes through both slits at the same time, and then interferes with itself, producing the characteristic interference pattern in the detectors. That one I find delightful! And perplexing too....

Wavefuntion collapse is probably
- unrelated to the Hard problem of consciousness
- unrelated to emergence
- unrelated to 'conscious entities', that's quantum woo
(and you said you're not discussing consciousness)

No comment on individual photons apparently interfering with themselves, or of one photon apparently passing through two slits at the same time? Oh, well. Perhaps it's just me.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 12:41 pm ...and yet it takes (as far as we know or understand) a conscious observer to cause the collapse.

That is not true.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 12:44 pm No comment on individual photons apparently interfering with themselves, or of one photon apparently passing through two slits at the same time? Oh, well. Perhaps it's just me.

If we can't know in principle, which slit it goes through, then it goes through both, interfering with itself.

Ok fine. Here's a neat example I just came up with: in 2020 we perform a double slit experiment, where a detector detects which slit the photons went through. But we don't look at the results of the experiment, instead we put the information captured by the detector on a rocket, and send it to the Andromeda galaxy. There are no duplicates of this information in the universe. In 2030 the rocket arrives in the Andromeda galaxy, where an alien civilization captures it. Two options:

1. The aliens don't irrecoverably destroy the information carried by the rocket. After that, we look at the results of the experiment, and we find that 10 years ago, the photons went through one slit or the other, 'in one piece'.

2. The aliens irrecoverably destroy the information carried by the rocket. After that, we look at the resulst of the experiment, and we find that 10 years ago, the photons went through bouth slits at the same time, and interfered with themselves.

Atla wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 1:29 pm Ok fine. Here's a neat example I just came up with: in 2020 we perform a double slit experiment, where a detector detects which slit the photons went through. But we don't look at the results of the experiment, instead we put the information captured by the detector on a rocket, and send it to the Andromeda galaxy. There are no duplicates of this information in the universe. In 2030 the rocket arrives in the Andromeda galaxy, where an alien civilization captures it. Two options:

1. The aliens don't irrecoverably destroy the information carried by the rocket. After that, we look at the results of the experiment, and we find that 10 years ago, the photons went through one slit or the other, 'in one piece'.

2. The aliens irrecoverably destroy the information carried by the rocket. After that, we look at the resulst of the experiment, and we find that 10 years ago, the photons went through bouth slits at the same time, and interfered with themselves.

I think investigation along these lines has been done, but I could be wrong.

Atla wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 12:56 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 12:41 pm ...and yet it takes (as far as we know or understand) a conscious observer to cause the collapse.

That is not true.

No? What do you know that I don't, or have missed?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 2:06 pm

Atla wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 12:56 pm
That is not true.

No? What do you know that I don't, or have missed?

Well that's just one of the big questions isn't it, what causes 'collapse'. But there seems to be no reason to think that 'individual consciousness' and 'quantum observer' are identical. I've keep saying: I don't think consciousness plays a special role in any of this, and everyone just ignores what I'm saying. There seems to be some overlapping going on however.

It could for example be so, that some part(s) of some or most people's individual consciousness are already in 'collapsed' states to begin with, or they share some 'collective collapsed island'. I wouldn't say all people, because some small human embrios may just as well be in superpositions from my perspective.

Some parts of my mind are probably 'collapsed', some parts of it might not be. Parts of the monitor in front of me is probably also collapsed, because I'm making it so.

And as I said, 'collapse' probably isn't related to consciousness in the Hard problem sense whatsoever. That's probably just taking two things that Western thought deeply misunderstands, and equating them.

It seems to be because of this overlapping, that there seems to this perfect connection between our mental content and the outside world, how the universe is always 'manifested' without the available possibilities, in accordance with what you are thinking and doing and knowing and all that. So imo that's a pretty strong direct evidence that existence is nondual. But it's also evidence that there seems to be a hidden quantum structure to the universe, hiding in plain sight, that we are only now beginning to understand.

Or maybe something entirely different is going on, no one really knows.

Another quirk of this is that you can stop, slow down or speed up the time evolution for some small parts of the universe, if you so choose. This ability to genuinely mess with time is one of the most mindblowing things imo. (called quantum zeno effect)

*how the universe is always 'manifested' within the available possibilities

On a side note, if we accept that some parts of our minds are for some reason (which reason is the biggest mistery here imo) already 'collapsed', and we might be able to automatically extend this collapse into the outside world, then funny questions start to pop up.
For example: if you stare at someone else, does that mess with their head, and makes them feel 'watched'? If you suddenly stare at a clock, does it seem to stop for a short while, or does it actually do that, from your perspective? Can you slightly influence the universe using attention and prayer etc. all these sorts of things.

Atla wrote: ↑November 29th, 2020, 12:39 pm On a side note, if we accept that some parts of our minds are for some reason (which reason is the biggest mistery here imo) already 'collapsed', and we might be able to automatically extend this collapse into the outside world, then funny questions start to pop up.
For example: if you stare at someone else, does that mess with their head, and makes them feel 'watched'? If you suddenly stare at a clock, does it seem to stop for a short while, or does it actually do that, from your perspective? Can you slightly influence the universe using attention and prayer etc. all these sorts of things.

1) You can't stop a clock with your mind.

2) When you stare, this is seen as a threat as it has been since before the Cambrian explosion. A stare usually means something is considering you as food. Species that do not see staring as a potential threat have not been as successful as those that have, and so modern species tend to have this trait.

Atla wrote: ↑November 29th, 2020, 12:13 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 26th, 2020, 2:06 pm

No? What do you know that I don't, or have missed?

Well that's just one of the big questions isn't it, what causes 'collapse'. But there seems to be no reason to think that 'individual consciousness' and 'quantum observer' are identical. I've keep saying: I don't think consciousness plays a special role in any of this, and everyone just ignores what I'm saying. There seems to be some overlapping going on however.

It could for example be so, that some part(s) of some or most people's individual consciousness are already in 'collapsed' states to begin with, or they share some 'collective collapsed island'. I wouldn't say all people, because some small human embrios may just as well be in superpositions from my perspective.

Some parts of my mind are probably 'collapsed', some parts of it might not be. Parts of the monitor in front of me is probably also collapsed, because I'm making it so.

And as I said, 'collapse' probably isn't related to consciousness in the Hard problem sense whatsoever. That's probably just taking two things that Western thought deeply misunderstands, and equating them.

It seems to be because of this overlapping, that there seems to this perfect connection between our mental content and the outside world, how the universe is always 'manifested' without the available possibilities, in accordance with what you are thinking and doing and knowing and all that. So imo that's a pretty strong direct evidence that existence is nondual. But it's also evidence that there seems to be a hidden quantum structure to the universe, hiding in plain sight, that we are only now beginning to understand.

Or maybe something entirely different is going on, no one really knows.

Another quirk of this is that you can stop, slow down or speed up the time evolution for some small parts of the universe, if you so choose. This ability to genuinely mess with time is one of the most mindblowing things imo. (called quantum zeno effect)

It's all part of your imagination.
You are kidding yourself