Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Wizard]

Belinda, Thank you for the poem, I like it. Misty

I don't. The poem is corny and completely irrelevant to the topic. The words are too jumbled and disconnected. A very poor quality selection, in my opinion. I would recommend a poem, at least, relevant to the the thread, which is skinny versus fat women.

[Misty]

Belinda, Thank you for the poem, I like it. Misty

I don't. The poem is corny and completely irrelevant to the topic. The words are too jumbled and disconnected. A very poor quality selection, in my opinion. I would recommend a poem, at least, relevant to the the thread, which is skinny versus fat women.

Please offer one.

[Present awareness]

Beauty is objective, because it is a judgment. And all judgments are objective.

This is where I disagree. All judgments are subjective. Why do judges in ice skating, come up with different scores? Why do film critics argue that a movie is good, while the other says it's bad? All judgements are subjective and based on personal taste. Just because you may be judging an object, doesn't mean that your judgment is "objective".

[Supine]

Several months ago I was working out with weights (99% free weights) and running the treadmill pretty religiously. On my workout days I worked out twice a day. And I pushed myself at a level that was very difficult for me. Plus, I increased my protein and calorie intake to a level sufficient enough to gain muscle mass (so long as I worked out to "failure"). Consequently, I got some pretty good results. I simultaneously increased muscle mass while cutting body fat. I used my own personal modification of the famous "300 Workout" that actors in the movie 300 used to prepare them for their roles.

I haven't worked out in two months now, so, I'm putting on more body fat again. But my thoughts are this at this moment: this may not necessarily be bad but actually a good relative to generations of men going back to the first half of the Twentieth Century. Men on average today are more muscular and bulky (and obese too) than the men of that earlier period. The pressure for improved aesthetics can be beneficial or a liability depending on a number of variables in the individual's life. Many years ago I briefly injected steroids. But today I have little to no desire to take steroids at all. I'm wondering if the "pressure" to improve one's physique comes with a problem somewhat similar to alcohol and gambling: a small percentage of the population will grossly overdue it to the point that what they're doing becomes detrimental to their well being?

If that's the case then any slight social pressure to even reduce morbid obesity in any population, can be expected to come with a side effect of a small fraction within that population, obese or not, picking up behaviors that result in anorexia or even steroid use. Partly due to some individuals starting off "behind" in the aesthetic department of the average person in their own sex category.

Most women don't battle anorexia. Most men don't battle steroid use in conjunction with never being satisfied being huge. And there are some massively huge men today that make the men of Arnold's day look big but not that big. See example below. Plus, I'm thinking of all the movies and commercials and TV shows that involve images and cues about drinking alcohol. Does "society make" alcoholics? Maybe on some level society does. But why isn't every person an alcoholic, every woman an anorexic, and every man as big as Mr. California Rich Piana in the video below?

[Wizard]

Please offer one.

Roses are red, Violets are blue,

Size 6 is hot, Size 12 is not.

-- Updated May 7th, 2014, 12:27 am to add the following --

This is where I disagree. All judgments are subjective. Why do judges in ice skating, come up with different scores? Why do film critics argue that a movie is good, while the other says it's bad? All judgements are subjective and based on personal taste. Just because you may be judging an object, doesn't mean that your judgment is "objective".

No because judgments are based upon objective reasons, not subjective tastes. Rules dictate the judgment of ice skating in the same way laws dictate the judgment of the supreme court. The highest judgment is that of the divine gods, who understand the highest physical laws, their applications, and have omniscient knowledge compared to the puny, limited knowing of humans.

-- Updated May 7th, 2014, 12:34 am to add the following --

Several months ago I was working out with weights (99% free weights) and running the treadmill pretty religiously. On my workout days I worked out twice a day. And I pushed myself at a level that was very difficult for me. Plus, I increased my protein and calorie intake to a level sufficient enough to gain muscle mass (so long as I worked out to "failure"). Consequently, I got some pretty good results. I simultaneously increased muscle mass while cutting body fat. I used my own personal modification of the famous "300 Workout" that actors in the movie 300 used to prepare them for their roles.

Muscles serve a function. And strength does not lie. If you have muscles then you can lift more weight, a heavier bench press and squat.

Females are discouraged from gaining muscles. Why is this? Sexual dimorphism, females are socially ridiculed from doing hard work, or dangerous work.

Because females are the privileged gender. Males are the expendable gender. One of the primary values of females is feminine beauty. This implies staying skinny, which is a sign of a woman controlling her diet. A woman who cannot control her diet, overeats, and becomes fat, a size 12, is deficient in self control. She has a weak willpower. Whereas a stricter woman, with more self control, more self discipline, can diet, fast, and exercise, to maintain a size 6 figure.

She is more beautiful, objectively, due to her stronger and more apparent willpower. Some larger women, inheriting a predisposed genetic pattern, are not predisposed to beauty, but to other parts of society. There are some small parts of society where big women are valued. But this is a small minority. And there are specific reasons for it. Some of these reasons is that big women produce big children. And big children are needed to grow into big adults, big workers, for tasks which require girth.

However this does not change the essential aspect of thinness in women, which directly correlates with beauty. Skinnier and thinner women are objectively more beautiful than others. It's not subjective, not even a little bit. It's not a matter for debate or "personal preference".

It is objective, universal, fact.

[Misty]

Please offer one.

Roses are red, Violets are blue,

Size 6 is hot, Size 12 is not.

Cute. Thank God you are not the judge for each persons idea of beauty. Some people like meat on the bones. The woman who is size 12 in this topic is very beautiful, so is the size 6 woman beautiful. Size 6/12 or any other size do not look the same on each body. Some size 6 women are more voluptuous than the size 6 in this topic and some size 12 are more slim than the size 12 pictured.

Many people are attracted to their body image opposite.

?..... what would you do if you were not attracted to the size 6 woman's personality but fell in love with the size 12 woman's personality?

[Wizard]

?..... what would you do if you were not attracted to the size 6 woman's personality but fell in love with the size 12 woman's personality?

Personality?! Hahahahahaha, good one, my dear. You have a fun sense of humor. Here is my type of woman:



I have more than enough personality, myself, to make up any deficiency in my sexual partner. Personality is the last trait I look for in a mate. I judge women based on looks, mostly and firstly. I consider it a personal favor of mine to have sex with average looking women.

We agree to disagree; you can have all the size 12 women you want. I will keep the size 6s, like Valeria here in the photo.

[Misty]

?..... what would you do if you were not attracted to the size 6 woman's personality but fell in love with the size 12 woman's personality?

Personality?! Hahahahahaha, good one, my dear. You have a fun sense of humor. Here is my type of woman:



I have more than enough personality, myself, to make up any deficiency in my sexual partner. Personality is the last trait I look for in a mate. I judge women based on looks, mostly and firstly. I consider it a personal favor of mine to have sex with average looking women.

We agree to disagree; you can have all the size 12 women you want. I will keep the size 6s, like Valeria here in the photo.

I don't want any women at all as I am a woman and heterosexual. You evaded the question. The pic of the woman you provided has very sad eyes, perhaps because she lacks respect for more than her looks? She is OK looking but to me on the plain side.

However, your above post proves all "Wizards" are not wise. LOL

[Wizard]

I don't want any women at all as I am a woman and heterosexual. You evaded the question. However, the above post proves all "Wizards" are not wise. LOL

I mentioned that I don't "fall in love" with a woman's personality. That should be a sufficient answer for you. You seem to underestimate female beauty. Are you beautiful? Size 6 or 12? Do you have a stake in the argument? I do, yes, because I find size 6 women very sexually arousing. Size 12 and up turn me off. One girl that I want to pursue in my life, is about 5'2" and 90 lb. She is gorgeous, one of the finest girls I've ever met.

[Misty]

I don't want any women at all as I am a woman and heterosexual. You evaded the question. However, the above post proves all "Wizards" are not wise. LOL

I mentioned that I don't "fall in love" with a woman's personality. That should be a sufficient answer for you. You seem to underestimate female beauty. Are you beautiful? Size 6 or 12? Do you have a stake in the argument? I do, yes, because I find size 6 women very sexually arousing. Size 12 and up turn me off. One girl that I want to pursue in my life, is about 5'2" and 90 lb. She is gorgeous, one of the finest girls I've ever met.

"Are you beautiful?" Are you handsome? Are you the body opposite of what you think is beautiful? Would she continue to be beautiful to you if she were 9 months pregnant with your child? Wizard, are you judged by your handsomeness alone? It just seems immature to judge any person on looks alone. How would you feel about this girl if she were in an accident and was not beautiful anymore? Would she have any value to you?

[Wizard]

"Are you beautiful?" Are you handsome?

Yes.

Are you the body opposite of what you think is beautiful?

No, complimentary to it.

Would she continue to be beautiful to you if she were 9 months pregnant with your child?

Even more so, the purpose of beauty is for a female to attract a mate for sex and procreation. Beauty is a general function of reproduction and life.

Wizard, are you judged by your handsomeness alone?

Yes, people often overlook or outright forgive my severe weaknesses, due to my looks alone. And I try to take full advantage of this fact.

It just seems immature to judge any person on looks alone. How would you feel about this girl if she were in an accident and was not beautiful anymore? Would she have any value to you?

It depends on the fuller context and our current relationship. If she is the mother of my children, then yes she would retain value. If not, then maybe not.

Now that I've answered your questions, you should go back and answer mine. Are you beautiful?

[Misty]

"Are you beautiful?" Are you handsome?

Yes.

Are you the body opposite of what you think is beautiful?

No, complimentary to it.

Would she continue to be beautiful to you if she were 9 months pregnant with your child?

Even more so, the purpose of beauty is for a female to attract a mate for sex and procreation. Beauty is a general function of reproduction and life.

Wizard, are you judged by your handsomeness alone?

Yes, people often overlook or outright forgive my severe weaknesses, due to my looks alone. And I try to take full advantage of this fact.

It just seems immature to judge any person on looks alone. How would you feel about this girl if she were in an accident and was not beautiful anymore? Would she have any value to you?

It depends on the fuller context and our current relationship. If she is the mother of my children, then yes she would retain value. If not, then maybe not.

Now that I've answered your questions, you should go back and answer mine. Are you beautiful?

I cannot imagine people forgiving ones "severe weaknesses" because of ones looks. Seems shallow. Do you think beautiful people get away with murder or rape because of their looks? For others to value whether you are complimentary to the girl in looks one would need to view you beside her. Without you supplying a pic we all have to take your word for it.

I am beautiful to myself and to some others, and to others I am not beautiful. No one is beautiful/handsome to all people. Take the pic of the girl in your post, perhaps if she had a smile on her sad face she would appear to be more beautiful to me, she looks like a plain Jane otherwise, to me. Maybe it is just a bad pic and in real life she is gorgeous. I was viewing the life and death of Farrah Fawcett. Many people said she was beautiful, but some said they did not find her beautiful at all. (I think she was a beautiful woman in her day) I also found her beautiful when she lost her hair to cancer treatment because she had a beautiful personality and a genuine care for other people.

Would you consider a person wrong if they did not find you a handsome man? Am I wrong for not agreeing with you about your girlfriend?

[Supine]

Without malice I disagree with both Wizard and Misty over one or more propositions they have in this thread.



1. I don't agree with Misty that the size 6 woman in the photo above (original photo from post #1) is "beautiful." If that term "beautiful" is supposed to be used to connote something to the right or above the mean average. She has little to no sex appeal to me at all. Hands down I find the size 12 woman more sexually alluring than her.

2. I disagree with Wizard that judgments are in and of themselves necessarily always objective. How would one explain the different judgments Muslims, Catholics, and agnostic pro-gay people have on marriage. All 3 come to differing judgments. The first one judges it licit for a man to have 4 wives. Et cetera. The judgements of all 3 on the issue of marriage can't simultaneously be objective. At least one of them are right or maybe all of them are wrong.

A judgement may be objective or it may not. In the sphere of aesthetics and arts we can look for certain values and/or characteristics in that which we are observing and by doing so our rapid assessments may guide us to a judgement either in consensus with others or not in consensus with the prevailing views. But then what influences--if at all--ones assessments and the values and characteristics they look for or are persuaded by? Our ethnic or even national background?



(Also, just to clarify a comment in my earlier post, I did make impressive improvements but being the human body makes slow changes in muscle mass development and fat loss, those improvements were rather microscope in relation to actual male fitness models or body builders. Nonetheless, they were/are noticeable improvements even if very small ones--considering the rather anorexic frame with traumatic arm injury I was starting with. Just wanted to clarify that lest someone thought I was insinuating I looked like a male fitness model or a "beast.")

[Wizard]

I cannot imagine people forgiving ones "severe weaknesses" because of ones looks. Seems shallow.

The vast majority of humanity is "shallow" then. Because that's what they do.

Do you think beautiful people get away with murder or rape because of their looks?

Sometimes they do, but yes, much more often than uglier people get away with crimes. Beautiful people enjoy a wide range of benefits, privileges, and entitlements that ugly people do not. For example, I've read scientific reports that factually record the success rates of taller men versus shorter men as CEOs and throughout other occupations. Taller men are perceived as more attractive, and thus earn subtle privileges in life.

Similar, or the same, as a beautiful, thin, young looking woman.

For others to value whether you are complimentary to the girl in looks one would need to view you beside her. Without you supplying a pic we all have to take your word for it.

Take my word for it then. You intuit the truth though. You recognize my underlying confidence. It is not merely bragging on my part. But objective, truthful, honest judgment.

I am beautiful to myself and to some others, and to others I am not beautiful. No one is beautiful/handsome to all people.

You demonstrate your insecurities. I want to see for myself, though.

Take the pic of the girl in your post, perhaps if she had a smile on her sad face she would appear to be more beautiful to me, she looks like a plain Jane otherwise, to me. Maybe it is just a bad pic and in real life she is gorgeous. I was viewing the life and death of Farrah Fawcett. Many people said she was beautiful, but some said they did not find her beautiful at all. (I think she was a beautiful woman in her day) I also found her beautiful when she lost her hair to cancer treatment because she had a beautiful personality and a genuine care for other people.

Valeria looks beautiful with or without a smiling face.

Would you consider a person wrong if they did not find you a handsome man? Am I wrong for not agreeing with you about your girlfriend?

Maybe.

[Misty]

I cannot imagine people forgiving ones "severe weaknesses" because of ones looks. Seems shallow.

The vast majority of humanity is "shallow" then. Because that's what they do.

Do you think beautiful people get away with murder or rape because of their looks?

Sometimes they do, but yes, much more often than uglier people get away with crimes. Beautiful people enjoy a wide range of benefits, privileges, and entitlements that ugly people do not. For example, I've read scientific reports that factually record the success rates of taller men versus shorter men as CEOs and throughout other occupations. Taller men are perceived as more attractive, and thus earn subtle privileges in life.

Similar, or the same, as a beautiful, thin, young looking woman.

For others to value whether you are complimentary to the girl in looks one would need to view you beside her. Without you supplying a pic we all have to take your word for it.

Take my word for it then. You intuit the truth though. You recognize my underlying confidence. It is not merely bragging on my part. But objective, truthful, honest judgment.

I am beautiful to myself and to some others, and to others I am not beautiful. No one is beautiful/handsome to all people.

You demonstrate your insecurities. I want to see for myself, though.

Take the pic of the girl in your post, perhaps if she had a smile on her sad face she would appear to be more beautiful to me, she looks like a plain Jane otherwise, to me. Maybe it is just a bad pic and in real life she is gorgeous. I was viewing the life and death of Farrah Fawcett. Many people said she was beautiful, but some said they did not find her beautiful at all. (I think she was a beautiful woman in her day) I also found her beautiful when she lost her hair to cancer treatment because she had a beautiful personality and a genuine care for other people.

Valeria looks beautiful with or without a smiling face.

Would you consider a person wrong if they did not find you a handsome man? Am I wrong for not agreeing with you about your girlfriend?

Maybe.

How is it that your truth about self states security and my statement about self insecurity?

So, can we agree that beauty/ugly/indifference is in the eye of the beholders, both cultural and individual? (some cultures valued heavy women as desirable because it showed the men as good providers)