Philosophy Discussion Forums

Handreas wrote:I'm very sorry for taking my answer from bible, but it is true for me (at least from my Point of View as a Christian). The thoughts alone relieved me from every stress that would develop from thinking about vengeance. "It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them" -Deuteronomy 32:35-

Do you know what I felt when read that passage? Grateful. People around me ready to wait for me forever in order for me to learn. But, if you see a murderer roam free, you'll make other people misjudge about God. I knew it's not what you mean, I can see it, God is exist, I know. But, I think at some point God want us to do His bid. By doing justice. If I asked, for how long I should wait before I can punish a murderer, I will remembered about my self and then decided to let them roam free. But I cant. People have to learn even though it felt unconvenience.

In my own life the best vengence or should I say justice is subverting the negative perceptions accorded to me through the attainment of my personal goals!

I see vengeance as belonging to an immature state of mind and as mankind has not progressed collectively too far from protecting his 'water hole' (personal property, his sense of identity and his/her inherited beliefs) then the idea of and enactment of vengeance or retribution will continue unabated. Personally, I believe separating oneself from inherited beliefs, conditioning and it's associated identities holds the key to finding new perspectives.

It varies from situation to situation. I personally determine on a case by case basis.

Most people only understand reprisals. How often have you heard the saying "What are you going to do to stop me?"

People fear not the natural outcomes of their actions. Only the social ones.

Handreas quoted:

"It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them" -Deuteronomy 32:35-

Which vengeful and egotistical god said that? I had heard that some other god recommended forgiving seventy times seven i.e. for ever

Belinda wrote:Handreas quoted:

"It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them" -Deuteronomy 32:35-

Which vengeful and egotistical god said that? I had heard that some other god recommended forgiving seventy times seven i.e. for ever

I suppose if one does genuinely believe in God/ fate/ karma, then it must make things a lot easier.. i.e. "Don't worry, he will get what he deserves". It is hard to distract ourselves from our own self righteousness and not to prove someone wrong. I don't just want to be right, I want to rub their ignorant, nasty face in it sometimes, especially when they are rude and arrogant. But that, of course, isn't very Christian (ie compassionate/ forgiving), let alone lady like. And has the bitter pill that I must then acknowledge that I am just like them- the one I have been stewing over and despising (in my mind)!

I am learning to hold my tongue, with age. It's just not worth biting back, even though it would be so enjoyable, in the moment. People are unfortunately more objectionable the more ignorant or distressed or unwell they are. That is why being a carer is so hard. It isn't the physical side which is hard, it is the emotional abuse and depression involved; the overwhelming ungratefulness and the sense of hopelessness that brings. You see the very worst of humanity and its loss.

I 'pray' for compassion- not just for others' bitterness, but for my own; for all the hatred that wells up in me, and for that of other people, even when that compassion falls on deaf ears. Then I pray that I will not become conceited or condescending, too full of myself and my wonderful compassion, and so on and so on. It seems an especially thankless task in our digital age, when we are so aware of everyone's woes.. but in real terms, I think humans are suffering less, and at least acting less violently/ vengeful overall. These times of change are bound to be tumultuous but they can also settle just as quickly.

We have at least started work on the physical problems we face, but the mental issues are dragging behind. A lot more needs to be done to ensure that children are 'trained' emotionally and behaviourally. Parenting classes and mindfulness meditation classes should be compulsory from the early years. I have come to meditation very late, and so I struggle to keep up regular practice, but I am like a different person when I'm in to it; completely chilled and reflective, light hearted and open. All the nonsense is so easy to let go. If it was taught in schools, along with the 3 R's, I'm sure the world would be a better place.

I've had a re think since my last post (not uncommon.) For instance, I have a plague of Harlequin bugs chomping on our vegie patch and a mass of parrots stripping our fruit trees. Oh, it doesn't matter, the poor things have got to eat something......vengeance is mine........grrrrrrr!!! Every time I make a statement it comes back to haunt me. Empathy with you Lucylu

-- Updated December 21st, 2015, 2:42 am to add the following --

I no longer hold an opinion on the matter...

Vengeance I feel is a fantasy construct of the mind which does serve a function sociologically. In small clans terrible behavior if left unchecked would result in more incidences (if not because the original perpetrator is left unscathed but also from lack of deterrence). Vengeance was our most primitive form of containing those activities we find highly objectionable. When taken in aggregate this tendency enabled the capability for rule of law.

That said Vengeance is a fantasy because its foundation is that somehow it balances the crime. As if killing your wife’s killer somehow undoes the injury, which of course we know it does not. It is functional in discouraging men from killing your wife for risk you will kill them back but it does not actually satisfy any condition of healing. It is my contention that from a judicial standpoint punishment should be executed without concern for the injured party as they will not experience any real relief. This does not mean I subscribe to camps which think all punishment is without merit, for I would assert that punishment absolutely does work against a great many agents as both a deterrent and to a much lesser extent rehabilitator. But that punishment should be administered with cold efficiency not impassioned anger.

Vengance is ok with me as long it is done non-violently and with great skill.

I support because people want to get even any ways and in general if people know you going fight back, tend not to be a problem in the first place.

-- Updated January 20th, 2016, 8:01 pm to add the following --

It also provides a counterbalance to those in power. If a ruler knows his subjects are going take their time and plot against said ruler, because that ruler behaved unjustly, they begin to become more "considerate"

Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord! I guess God is telling people that vengeance is beyond their prerogative. It's somehow sacred and otherworldly, not to be trifled with by human stupidity. Trouble is, the word is not simply a logical function, it's not like 'shoe' encompassing all shoes. It has clear emotional value, and we all know the emotion: it's childish and vile.

I've felt it, and it's just not a savory quality in any way. It interferes with lucid thinking. Conservatives are like this in their drive to punish. They go on and on about the need for justice, but this justice is not about fairness (my reading of the term) but about revenge, and revenge is a primitive power play.

Perhaps the oddest thing about revenge is that it simply makes no sense whatsoever. Since it bypasses any examination of accountability (or, it wants to very badly. Analyzing a case is not the business of vengeance; analysis is taking the matter beyond feelings and into understanding, which is the enemy of visceral, blind and unreflective vengeance) it assumes all is well with the meaning of accountability. But all is not well: You can never the will to do from the conditions inform the will. I may be free to commit an ax murder and choose not to, but why not? Is there any answer to this question that does not nullify free will?

The media feeds loves revenge because it loves to play on those emotions that will motivate you to watch, which is why I occasionally side with B.F. Skinner in his Beyond Freedom and Dignity would call for an absolute control over the conditions of our upbringing (Babies should be brought to a facility and given proper care and indoctrination so they grow up to be decent people. Why not, he argues, since you're just as conditioned if the conditioning called itself freedom and were not so explicit? We are already conditioned, so why not make it a worthy conditioning? And freedom? Never existed that causes so much foolishness and trouble.

Vengeance is the psychological equivalent of Newton's third Law of Motion, thus is not only understandable but natural. Of course it can be violated since we are taking psychology, not physics, but it is natural.

If someone hurt a family member of mine, I'd want vengeance. I'd want to hurt or kill the SOB (whether I'd do so or not). What's wrong with that attitude? Feels right to me.

Under certain circumstances, vengeance can be misdirected, of course. But in my own personal moral system, it can seem appropriate and ethical. You're allowed to feel differently, of course. But your moral ideas are your own, and no better in an absolute sense than mine.

Wilson:
If someone hurt a family member of mine, I'd want vengeance. I'd want to hurt or kill the SOB (whether I'd do so or not). What's wrong with that attitude? Feels right to me.

Under certain circumstances, vengeance can be misdirected, of course. But in my own personal moral system, it can seem appropriate and ethical. You're allowed to feel differently, of course. But your moral ideas are your own, and no better in an absolute sense than mine.

You say two things: First, you ask what's wrong with wanting vengeance. Then you justify your position with an appeal to the arbitrariness values.

It's a tough position to defend. Vengeance is pretty irrational and it has no interest in justice. It's a primitive emotion and in order have a morally responsible regard for wrong doing one has to pry oneself loose from what would call t a drive to lash out. The "right" feeling you have may very well direct you horribly misguided retribution.,and I should add that the feeling itself is raw, visceral, and cannot be distinguished from anger or rage. Is this really a good way to run your moral judgment?

As to the failure to demonstrate that vengeance violates some absolute standard, well, let me count the ways: first and most obvious, if it were an absolute standard you need to disqualify a moral regard for something, then you would find yourself justified in doing anything. Shall we dust Moscow Mr. President?

Wilson wrote:If someone hurt a family member of mine, I'd want vengeance. I'd want to hurt or kill the SOB (whether I'd do so or not). What's wrong with that attitude? Feels right to me.

Under certain circumstances, vengeance can be misdirected, of course. But in my own personal moral system, it can seem appropriate and ethical. You're allowed to feel differently, of course. But your moral ideas are your own, and no better in an absolute sense than mine.

I'm with you. To me the wringing of hands at the idea (gasp!) of vengeance, is much ado about nothing. To me it is a labelling issue.

For example, if someone mugs someone in my immediate family, the victim may want the perp caught so they can get closure emotionally, my neighbor may want the guy caught and put in jail so his family is marginally safer, the policeman may want the guy caught, cuz that's just what they do, a social worker may want the guy caught so he can be rehabilitated to make society safer, I may want to personally knee cap them (out of "vengeance"). Bottom line we all want him punished because of what he did. The motivations differ and the types of punishments differ but as a whole the commentary is more similar than different. What is the substantive difference between my "vengeance" and routine criminal justice, say 200 years ago? The one outlier would be the perp's mom who doesn't want him caught or punished in any way, but I think we agree that is NOT the strategy to deal with crime.

Lucky4:
Bottom line we all want him punished

I thought the bottom line was justice.