Philosophy Discussion Forums

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 4:41 am They are not countries with social-democratc governments. And they are not countries we should admire or emulate. They are far-left dictatorships. What we need is something between the two extremes of communist dictatorship and fascist dictatorship. The USA is lurching towards the latter. There is no social-democratic party in the USA.

The right say that, the millions of undocumented migrants coming into the country will largely vote democrat, so they think that if Trump loses this that Republicans will never win again.

Both sides are catastrophising, pretending that it will be game over if the opposition wins. Both mainstream and social media make their money from attention, and to that end each leverages human' natural negativity bias. Of course, each mode of media blames the other while both are guilty.

People need to wise up and not be suckered into the relentless doomsaying, including nonsense about "capitalistic greed" and the "American empire". The US's hegemony is already largely gone and no one here even talked about it. Time and events passed, as they always do. Nothing remains the same.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 7:33 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 5:20 am Do you agree with government mandated price controls? Merchants will decide it's better to stop doing business than to sell goods at a loss, or risk punishment for trying to make a living.

It happened in ancient Rome:

YT summary:

Summary:

The video discusses the historical example of Roman Emperor Diocletian's price control attempt in 301 AD through the Edict of Maximum Prices.

This initiative led to widespread shortages as producers refused to sell goods at the mandated prices. The refusal to comply resulted in the emergence of black markets. There were significant difficulties in enforcing the price controls.

Ultimately, the policy failed and contributed to economic instability.

I expect the upshot is that only giant corporations will be able to turn a profit, decimating small businesses.

We are facing many wicked problems and we need to be careful with policy to avoid causing unintended knock-on problems when interfering with the market. Better to focus on dealing with monopolies and cartels IMO - which helps markets normalise rather than introducing extra distortions. Trouble is, who will take on Blackrock, Big Pharma, Monsato etc?

It's amazing how easily people are suckered into right wing propoganda.
If you really want to know what is going to wcrew the US economy, you might want to look at TARIFFS.

It's amazing how many people are suckered in by leftists propaganda, always forgetting the lessons of history as if today's latest sensation was all that existed. The left also loves to smear centrists as right wing, as though anyone who doesn't blindly follow their blind biases is of the evil right.

Tariffs won't screw the US economy; that's just propaganda. Debt is the greater enemy. The US is already spending more on servicing debt than on its military or health systems.

Also, if the US wants to slow its inevitable decline, it needs to start manufacturing again. Is it any surprise that China is out-competing the US in technology when it's making everything. Practice makes perfect and, while China practises, the US and the west become rusty.

Anyway, when it comes to all these projections, time will tell the tale better than bluster on the internet. We can come back to this later and compare notes, and see who was more wrong.

Lagayscienza wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 4:41 am They are not countries with social-democratc governments. And they are not countries we should admire or emulate. They are far-left dictatorships. What we need is something between the two extremes of communist dictatorship and fascist dictatorship. The USA is lurching towards the latter. There is no social-democratic party in the USA.

Well said Lagayscienza

And we shall all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Sweden is having a crisis poorly planned immigration. Norway relies on oil and whaling. The Finns have massive gun ownership and the country is laced with bunkers due to risks of attack. All have functioned based on trust through homogeneity - something that most of the west have never been.

Most systems are valid to some extent. The world cannot all operate under one system for all the reasons that I've made that have been ignored.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 4:47 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 7:33 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 5:20 am Do you agree with government mandated price controls? Merchants will decide it's better to stop doing business than to sell goods at a loss, or risk punishment for trying to make a living.

It happened in ancient Rome:

YT summary:

Summary:

The video discusses the historical example of Roman Emperor Diocletian's price control attempt in 301 AD through the Edict of Maximum Prices.

This initiative led to widespread shortages as producers refused to sell goods at the mandated prices. The refusal to comply resulted in the emergence of black markets. There were significant difficulties in enforcing the price controls.

Ultimately, the policy failed and contributed to economic instability.

I expect the upshot is that only giant corporations will be able to turn a profit, decimating small businesses.

We are facing many wicked problems and we need to be careful with policy to avoid causing unintended knock-on problems when interfering with the market. Better to focus on dealing with monopolies and cartels IMO - which helps markets normalise rather than introducing extra distortions. Trouble is, who will take on Blackrock, Big Pharma, Monsato etc?

It's amazing how easily people are suckered into right wing propoganda.
If you really want to know what is going to wcrew the US economy, you might want to look at TARIFFS.

It's amazing how many people are suckered in by leftists propaganda, always forgetting the lessons of history as if today's latest sensation was all that existed. The left also loves to smear centrists as right wing, as though anyone who doesn't blindly follow their blind biases is of the evil right.

Tariffs won't screw the US economy; that's just propaganda. Debt is the greater enemy. The US is already spending more on servicing debt than on its military or health systems.

SO you are saying that economists the world over, with few exceptions are all engaged in left wing propaganda, incluing the right wing ones?
DO I read you correctly?
DO you have any evidence for this.?

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 2:53 am Most systems are valid to some extent. The world cannot all operate under one system for all the reasons that I've made that have been ignored.

I think it might be possible for one system to work across the board ... if it can be tailored to suit each national environment. But that's a bit of a fudge. Tailoring a system will result in a new system that is different, maybe in small ways, maybe in big ones. I agree there is no one *fixed* system that can accommodate all needs.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 8:39 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 2:53 am Most systems are valid to some extent. The world cannot all operate under one system for all the reasons that I've made that have been ignored.

I think it might be possible for one system to work across the board ... if it can be tailored to suit each national environment. But that's a bit of a fudge. Tailoring a system will result in a new system that is different, maybe in small ways, maybe in big ones. I agree there is no one *fixed* system that can accommodate all needs. 👍

Environment, resources, history and culture put paid to any global system that would do more good than harm. It's akin to expecting all people to have the same diet.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 16th, 2024, 8:51 am In what way do you think this might happen.
By what mechanism would greed end the "American Empire" and what do you think that is, exactly?

Since 1980 the wealthy 1% have waged a brutal war on the rest of Americans. Unions have been busted, tax money is used to subsidize and bail out big businesses and subsidize the movement of factories overseas. And it wasn't just the Republicans as Reagan couldn't get the disastrous NAFTA passed but Clinton could. We've seen major tax breaks given to the 1% and increases in defense spending to wage forever wars.

The class war has lead to a horrible increase in financial inequality. From 1983 to 2016 the aggregate wealth of US families has shifted as follows:
The upper income families saw an increase from 50% to 79%, while the middle income families saw a decrease from 32% to 17% and the lower income families wealth fell from 7% to 4%. I believe that since 2016 the inequality difference has accelerated to even worse numbers. This economic system which is running on exploited workers at home and abroad isn't sustainable and is headed for master and slave classes. Once all the wealth is transferred upwards then what? The US Empire will crash IMO.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 8:39 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 2:53 am Most systems are valid to some extent. The world cannot all operate under one system for all the reasons that I've made that have been ignored.

I think it might be possible for one system to work across the board ... if it can be tailored to suit each national environment. But that's a bit of a fudge. Tailoring a system will result in a new system that is different, maybe in small ways, maybe in big ones. I agree there is no one *fixed* system that can accommodate all needs.

I don't think any system will work unless we figure out how to control the greed which seems to me to be a basic human trait, at least in some people.
Unchecked greed will destroy any system.
It may have come from early humans that had to learn how to survive by taking food from the weaker humans.

Mo_reese wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 10:58 am

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 16th, 2024, 8:51 am In what way do you think this might happen.
By what mechanism would greed end the "American Empire" and what do you think that is, exactly?

Since 1980 the wealthy 1% have waged a brutal war on the rest of Americans. Unions have been busted, tax money is used to subsidize and bail out big businesses and subsidize the movement of factories overseas. And it wasn't just the Republicans as Reagan couldn't get the disastrous NAFTA passed but Clinton could. We've seen major tax breaks given to the 1% and increases in defense spending to wage forever wars.

The class war has lead to a horrible increase in financial inequality. From 1983 to 2016 the aggregate wealth of US families has shifted as follows:
The upper income families saw an increase from 50% to 79%, while the middle income families saw a decrease from 32% to 17% and the lower income families wealth fell from 7% to 4%. I believe that since 2016 the inequality difference has accelerated to even worse numbers. This economic system which is running on exploited workers at home and abroad isn't sustainable and is headed for master and slave classes. Once all the wealth is transferred upwards then what? The US Empire will crash IMO.

If you are tempted enough to go back and look at traditional empires, such as the British..
During the time of the height and power of the British Empire was also the height of the most extreme inequality. Whilst the Monarch and his Lords decked themselves in gold, with massive estates, and until 1808 slaves too, they exploited the most extreme poverty and imported tea, sugar and textiles from the dirt poor peasants that made these goods.
As the 19thC progressed, the franchise was extended, and unions were born. WIth this social progress the bracks in empire began to show.
But the time of the First World War was over all adults had a vote, and the ability to join a unions the power of empire was fading. Unable to easily keep the territories gained from the Ottomans post WWI the British even resorted to chemical weapons in IRaq to crush rebellions, where the whites had replaced the locals (Canada, NewZealand, Australia), the social progress began to demand independance. By the end of WW2 the game was up, and through the emancipation of the people the empire died.

But in the US we see the very opposite of this. People are losing their power and you seen to think this will end the empire, yet China were the same personal freedoms do not exist is growing to eclipse the US.
It would seem you have thinks precisely backwards. Loss of personal freedoms and individual power is not a sign of the end of empire, but a re-assertion of it. IMperial power thrives on the fear and poverty of the masses.

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 6:53 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 4:47 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 7:33 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 5:20 am Do you agree with government mandated price controls? Merchants will decide it's better to stop doing business than to sell goods at a loss, or risk punishment for trying to make a living.

It happened in ancient Rome:

YT summary:

Summary:



I expect the upshot is that only giant corporations will be able to turn a profit, decimating small businesses.

We are facing many wicked problems and we need to be careful with policy to avoid causing unintended knock-on problems when interfering with the market. Better to focus on dealing with monopolies and cartels IMO - which helps markets normalise rather than introducing extra distortions. Trouble is, who will take on Blackrock, Big Pharma, Monsato etc?

It's amazing how easily people are suckered into right wing propoganda.
If you really want to know what is going to wcrew the US economy, you might want to look at TARIFFS.

It's amazing how many people are suckered in by leftists propaganda, always forgetting the lessons of history as if today's latest sensation was all that existed. The left also loves to smear centrists as right wing, as though anyone who doesn't blindly follow their blind biases is of the evil right.

Tariffs won't screw the US economy; that's just propaganda. Debt is the greater enemy. The US is already spending more on servicing debt than on its military or health systems.

SO you are saying that economists the world over, with few exceptions are all engaged in left wing propaganda, incluing the right wing ones?
DO I read you correctly?
DO you have any evidence for this.?

I could just as easily ask you how concern over the largest debt in history, with massive repayments, is right wing propaganda (albeit sans your histrionics and poor punctuation).

All monetary systems and the power blocs they support eventually break down. We are watching it happen again.

The advent of AI makes the next steps unpredictable.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 5:05 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 6:53 am

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 4:47 pm

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 17th, 2024, 7:33 am

It's amazing how easily people are suckered into right wing propoganda.
If you really want to know what is going to wcrew the US economy, you might want to look at TARIFFS.

It's amazing how many people are suckered in by leftists propaganda, always forgetting the lessons of history as if today's latest sensation was all that existed. The left also loves to smear centrists as right wing, as though anyone who doesn't blindly follow their blind biases is of the evil right.

Tariffs won't screw the US economy; that's just propaganda. Debt is the greater enemy. The US is already spending more on servicing debt than on its military or health systems.

SO you are saying that economists the world over, with few exceptions are all engaged in left wing propaganda, incluing the right wing ones?
DO I read you correctly?
DO you have any evidence for this.?

I could just as easily ask you how concern over the largest debt in history, with massive repayments, is right wing propaganda (albeit sans your histrionics and poor punctuation).

In order to have a discussion you might want to consider answering the questions, else we cannot move on.
In answer to your question, First please desist from the ad homimen.
Secondly, I would have to ask when do you think I implied that the debt was right wing propoganda?
The propoganda aspect of my response is the false equivalence of modern economics with ancient, especially concerning the probles with price controls
And I hardly think that the Trump team would want to remind everyone of the debt crisis, since it was he that plunged the US economy depper into debt to the tune of $7trillion + causing the inflation crisis of the last 3 years, which the Democrats have had to bring under control.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 2:53 am Most systems are valid to some extent. The world cannot all operate under one system for all the reasons that I've made that have been ignored.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 8:39 am I think it might be possible for one system to work across the board ... if it can be tailored to suit each national environment. But that's a bit of a fudge. Tailoring a system will result in a new system that is different, maybe in small ways, maybe in big ones. I agree there is no one *fixed* system that can accommodate all needs.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 10:05 am Environment, resources, history and culture put paid to any global system that would do more good than harm. It's akin to expecting all people to have the same diet.

I think it's akin to expecting all people to eat food. But it doesn't matter; we are in general agreement, which is all that matters here.

Mo_reese wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 11:28 am I don't think any system will work unless we figure out how to control the greed which seems to me to be a basic human trait, at least in some people.
Unchecked greed will destroy any system.
It may have come from early humans that had to learn how to survive by taking food from the weaker humans.

Yes, perhaps it dates back to a time when the fight for food was a fight for survival — eat or starve (i.e. die).

I think there are systems that tolerate, even support, "unchecked greed", but those are the authoritarian slave-based systems we usually try to avoid. The greed applies to those at the 'top'.

But on a more general note, it is reasonable to observe, as you say, that greed is common amongst humans. Any political system we devise will have to deal with widespread greed. Whether this is regularly, or only occasionally, is the only uncertainty? Perhaps that's the test of any proposed political system, that it can deal with, even thrive under, the baser human traits?

Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 18th, 2024, 12:18 pm During the time of the height and power of the British Empire was also the height of the most extreme inequality. Whilst the Monarch and his Lords decked themselves in gold, with massive estates, and until 1808 slaves too, they exploited the most extreme poverty and imported tea, sugar and textiles from the dirt poor peasants that made these goods.

[...]

But in the US we see the very opposite of this. People are losing their power and you seem to think this will end the empire, yet China where the same personal freedoms do not exist is growing to eclipse the US.

It would seem you have things precisely backwards. Loss of personal freedoms and individual power is not a sign of the end of empire, but a re-assertion of it. Imperial power thrives on the fear and poverty of the masses.

This is an interesting speculation. Could it be that the unbridled greed we can see demonstrates the health and vigour of the American Empire? Is that possible?