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Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
User avatar
By Consul
#400829
Terrapin Station wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 8:12 pmThere isn't some sort of consciousness that's not subjective experience.
Transitive consciousness aka perceptual consciousness can take place without experiential/phenomenal consciousness, i.e. it needn't involve and subjective sensations.
Location: Germany
User avatar
By Consul
#400830
Terrapin Station wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 5:47 pmIn my view, attempts of a distinction between "phenomenal consciousness" and "(non phenomenal) consciousness,"…
A prominent role in contemporary philosophy of mind plays Ned Block's distinction between phenomenal consciousness (P-consciousness) and access consciousness (A-consciousness).

QUOTE>
"access consciousness n. According to a distinction introduced by the US philosopher Ned J(oel) Block (born 1942) in a co-edited book entitled The Nature of Consciousness (1997), a non-phenomenal category of consciousness involving cognitions and representations that are poised or ready for use in controlled processing. A state is A-conscious if it is not experienced directly but is poised for the control of thought and action, as might occur if a thirsty person with blindsight responded spontaneously (without prompting) by reaching for a drink perceived without conscious visual experience. Representations that would be available for use if re-activated are not necessarily access-conscious unless they are poised and ready to control behaviour. Also called A consciousness."

(Colman, Andrew M. A Dictionary of Psychology. 3rd ed. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2009. pp. 4-5)

"phenomenal consciousness n. According to a distinction introduced by the US philosopher Ned J(oel) Block (born 1942) in a co-edited book entitled The Nature of Consciousness (1997), aspects of consciousness that are phenomenal in the sense of being directly experienced, often (but perhaps not always) accompanied by access consciousness. An example of phenomenal consciousness initially without access consciousness arises when a person involved in a conversation suddenly notices that the sound of a ticking clock has been clearly audible throughout the conversation. Up to that moment, the person was phenomenal-conscious of the sound but not access-conscious of it, because the sound was available to conscious perception but not poised for control of action until it was noticed. Also called P consciousness."

(Colman, Andrew M. A Dictionary of Psychology. 3rd ed. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2009. p. 570)
<QUOTE

Block's concept of access consciousness has been criticized by colleagues, and I agree with their criticism:

QUOTE>
"Block’s distinction has been widely influential. But it now seems to me entirely wrongheaded. The ordinary concept consciousness is not a mongrel concept. There is no such thing as access consciousness. Consider again my belief that Stockholm is the capital of Sweden. That’s a belief I have at times at which it does not manifest itself in a conscious thought or speech. At such times, it is unconscious. Yet it meets all the conditions for access consciousness, as noted above. The simple fact is that Block’s notion of access consciousness is a technical notion. It has nothing to do with the ordinary concept consciousness. What is true is that my belief is rationally accessible, but it hardly follows from this that my belief is a certain sort of conscious state (or for that matter that I am conscious of it).

If there is no such thing as access consciousness, then there is no need to talk of phenomenal consciousness. There is just consciousness simpliciter. …Block has introduced a certain sort of cognitive accessibility and claimed without foundation that it is a sort of consciousness. The concept consciousness is not analyzable in terms of Block’s accessibility, nor does his accessibility provide an a priori sufficient condition for consciousness. This is shown by the fact that there is no incoherence in supposing that a being might undergo all Block’s conditions for having “access conscious” states and yet not be conscious at all."

(Tye, Michael. Tense Bees and Shell-Shocked Crabs: Are Animals Conscious? New York: Oxford University Press, 2017. p. 23)

"[T]he term “access consciousness” is a misnomer. So-called access consciousness is just access."

(Tye, Michael. Tense Bees and Shell-Shocked Crabs: Are Animals Conscious? New York: Oxford University Press, 2017. p. 89)

———

"Consider, first, a distinction that Block (1995) draws between phenomenal consciousness and access consciousness. As we have seen, phenomenal consciousness can be equated with experience. Access consciousness is what we have when information is poised for reporting and deliberation. Block thinks these two can come apart. For example, we might have phenomenality without access when we hear the background buzz of an air conditioner but fail to notice it. Access without phenomenality is alleged to arise in pathological cases in which a person can act on sensory information in the absence of experience. For example, some people with blindsight have brain injuries that prevent visual experience, but they nevertheless avoid obstacles when walking, and, we can imagine, they might come to report the placement of those obstances (de Gelder, 2010).

I reject this distinction. I don't believe there is any form of access that deserves to be called consciousness without phenomenality. After all, access is cheap. When an ordinary desktop computer calls up information from a hard drive or responds to inputs from a user, it is accessing information, but there is little temptation to say that the computer is conscious. Information access seems conscious in the human case when and only when it is accompanied by phenomenal experience. When we retrieve memories or deliberate, we experience mental imagery and inner speech. Presumably, people with blindsight who can readily report on the locations of obstacles also experience inner speech before issuing such reports. In saying that they are conscious, we implicitly presume that they are having experiences. If it turned out that obstacle avoidance in blindsight was totally devoid of experience, in the way that we might imagine insects having no experience when they fly from place to place, the temptation to say that such people are conscious of obstacles would disappear. The other half of Block's distinction can also be challenged. Phenomenal consciousness may always involve access or at least accessibility. But, with Block, I don't think this link is conceptually obvious. That task of establishing the link will have to await empirical evidence."

(Prinz, Jesse J. The Conscious Brain: How Attention Engenders Experience. New York: Oxford University Press, 2012. pp. 5-6)

"'[C]onsciousness' always refers more fundamentally to phenomenal experience and…any cognitive access we have to our mental states deserves to be called a form of consciousness only if those cognitive states have phenomenal qualities."

(Prinz, Jesse J. The Conscious Brain: How Attention Engenders Experience. New York: Oxford University Press, 2012. p. 35)

"The term 'phenomenal consciousness' implies that there is another kind of consciousness, perhaps what Ned Block calls 'access consciousness'. I side with those who reject this distinction. I think phenomenal properties do not come into existence without being accessible, and I think mere information access is not sufficient for consciousness. Consciousness properly so-called is both phenomenal and accessible."

(Prinz, Jesse. "Against Illusionism." In Illusionism as a Theory of Consciousness, edited by Keith Frankish, 186-196. Exeter: Imprint Academic, 2017. pp. 187-8)

———

"[T]his redefinition of information access as “access consciousness” risks inflating a brain function to a conscious status that it does not possess. Information access and information availability have been widely recognised aspects of human information processing since the advent of cognitive psychology in the 1960’s, and it is true that information which enters phenomenal consciousness can be accessed, rehearsed, entered into long-term memory, used for the guidance of action and so on. However, the processes that actually enable information access, rehearsal, transfer to long-term memory and guidance of action are not themselves conscious (if they were there would be no need to subject such processes to detailed investigation within cognitive psychological research—see Velmans, 1991a). In short, “access consciousness” is not actually a form of consciousness. The conscious part of “access consciousness” is just phenomenal consciousness, and the processes that enable access to items in phenomenal consciousness are not conscious at all."

(Velmans, Max. "How to Define Consciousness – And How Not to Define Consciousness." 2009. Reprinted in Towards a Deeper Understanding of Consciousness: Selected Works of Max Velmans, 23-36. Abingdon: Routledge, 2017. p. 28)

———

"Functionalists in particular try to reduce consciousness to some input-output function or causal role in the control of behaviour. Along the functionalist lines of thought, consciousness has been defined as 'access consciousness'. Access refers to the output function of conscious information: Consciousness is the type of information that accesses many other cognitive systems – motor systems – and thereby also is able to guide or control external behaviour, especially verbal reports about the contents of (reflective) consciousness. According to the functionalist definition, then, conscious information is only the information in the brain that fulfils the access function. 'Access' refers to global informational access, especially the access to output systems within the human cognitive system.

If consciousness is identified with the global access function of information, the ability to report the contents of consciousness verbally or to respond externally to stimuli is at least implied as necessary for consciousness, because 'access' generally means access to output systems. Furthermore, the access definition of consciousness reduces consciousness to a certain type of information processing (or input-output function) and hence suffers from all the same problems as functionalism does as a theory of consciousness. It leaves out qualia, and it rejects the possibility that there could be pure phenomenal consciousness that is independent of selective attention, reflective consciousness, verbal report or control of output mechanisms."

(Revonsuo, Antti. Consciousness: The Science of Subjectivity. New York: Psychology Press, 2010. p. 95)
<QUOTE
Location: Germany
User avatar
By Consul
#400838
There is an old meaning of "consciousness" = transitive consciousness or awareness of one's own mind, cognition (knowledge) or perception of one's own mental states. Here consciousness is equated with introspective or reflective consciousness of one's mind (called "internal sense" by Locke and "inner sense" by Kant).

QUOTE>
"Consciousness is the perception of what passes in a man's own mind."

(Locke, John. An Essay Concerning Human Understanding. 1690. 2:1;19.)

———

"‘Consciousness’ is a word used by philosophers, to signify that immediate knowledge which we have of our present thoughts and purposes, and, in general, of all the present operations of our minds."

(Reid, Thomas. Essays on the Intellectual Powers of Man. 1785. Edited by Derek R. Brookes. University Park, PA: Pennsylvania State University Press, 2002. p. 24 [Essay I, Ch. 1, §7])

———

"Consciousness is briefly defined as the power by which the soul knows its own acts and states."
(p. 83)

"Consciousness used to designate knowledge of any kind—Again, the terms 'conscious' and 'consciousness' are often applied to any act whatever of direct cognition, whether its object be internal or external. In other words, they are used as equivalent to knowing, perceiving, etc., and to knowledge, perception, etc."
(p. 84)

"The terms 'conscious' and 'consciousness' explain their own meaning, and confirm the truth of the assumption and belief that the fact implied by the language is to be received. They describe a knowing with, or an attendant knowledge, and they imply that the states of the human soul may be known by the soul to which they pertain. The power of the soul thus to know itself is often called the internal, or the inner sense. This term is suggested by analogy. As the soul, by the external sense or senses, apprehends the properties and qualities of matter, so it is said to know its own states and powers by another, viz., an inner sense."
(p. 85)

(Porter, Noah. The Human Intellect, with an Introduction upon Psychology and the Soul. 4th ed. New York: Scribner & Co., 1869.)

———

"Consciousness is being aware of mental activity."

(Baldwin, Joseph. Elementary Psychology and Education. New York: Appleton & Co., 1893. p. 75)

———

"I suggest that consciousness is no more than awareness (perception) of inner mental states by the person whose states they are. If this is so, then consciousness is simply a further mental state, a state 'directed' towards the original inner states.

Consciousness, or experience, then (as opposed to completely nonselfconscious mental activity which is perfectly possible, and occurs in the case of the 'automatic driving') is simply awareness of our own state of mind. The technical term for awareness of our own mental state is 'introspection' or 'introspective awareness'."

(Armstrong, D. M. A Materialist Theory of the Mind. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1968. pp. 94-5)
<QUOTE
Location: Germany
User avatar
By psyreporter
#400861
3017Metaphysician wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 2:59 pm
psyreporter wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 12:59 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: October 28th, 2021, 2:36 pm Other philosophical concerns resulting from the limitations of 'pure reason' might include the questions about the paradoxical apperceptions of reality. Is "I think therefore I am" proof of a reality that exists only in one's mind? How can logic and rationality save us from this nightmare?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito,_ergo_sum
"not not" doesn't have a word, perhaps it is indicative ;)
Hello psyr!!

My quandary there is from a metaphysical perspective. If the materialist believes that the nature of one's existence is apperceived as being not real by virtue of claiming that consciousness is an illusion, then how can the materialist reconcile their own physicalist position knowing or similarly claiming that their own consciousness is not real or an illusion(?). The self refuting part seems to be the materialist is believing that their apperception of reality (the conscious experience) consists only of things that are physical. Yet an illusion is not physical (?) Hence they are believing in something (their own consciousness) that appears as not being real/physical; an illusion. And that seems to exclude (I'm not a 'materialist') the dualist arguments and/or other qualities (Qualia) of conscious existence and sentient experience (Affect Consciousness)...

By contrast, the idealist (Subjective Idealism), I think would be more consistent in his belief that an illusion is reality. But to the materialist, he seems to be saying that his own consciousness is an illusion yet it still exists as such. I could stand corrected there.

With respect to the logically impossible aspect of conscious existence, yes, the 'not not' is like saying I'm driving and not driving. From language, that's the 'illogical' or logically impossible explanation from an experience of driving while daydreaming. Our minds our wonderful things-in-themselves!

You raise an intriguing possibility relative to 'meaning'! Can you elucidate a bit on that?
My reply to the new topic by JackDaydream on Descartes his assertion "I think, therefore I am" provides additional details. Essentially, in my opinion, it concerns the 🦋 free will vs determinism debate.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17707&p=400860 (Who am.'I'?)
User avatar
By Terrapin Station
#400899
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 5:16 pm "access consciousness n. According to a distinction introduced by the US philosopher Ned J(oel) Block (born 1942) in a co-edited book entitled The Nature of Consciousness (1997), a non-phenomenal category of consciousness involving cognitions and representations that are poised or ready for use in controlled processing. A state is A-conscious if it is not experienced directly but is poised for the control of thought and action, as might occur if a thirsty person with blindsight responded spontaneously (without prompting) by reaching for a drink perceived without conscious visual experience. Representations that would be available for use if re-activated are not necessarily access-conscious unless they are poised and ready to control behaviour. Also called A consciousness."
That, for example, is basically positing that there are unconscious states that are nevertheless conscious states somehow.

What do you think would be a good reason to posit such a thing?
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine Location: NYC Man
User avatar
By Terrapin Station
#400900
Oops--typo above.

That should have read:

That, for example, is basically positing that there are unconscious states that are nevertheless MENTAL states somehow.
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine Location: NYC Man
User avatar
By Terrapin Station
#400901
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 4:58 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 8:12 pmThere isn't some sort of consciousness that's not subjective experience.
Transitive consciousness aka perceptual consciousness can take place without experiential/phenomenal consciousness, i.e. it needn't involve and subjective sensations.
Something other than terms that we make up would have to be offered in support of that idea. What would consciousness that doesn't involve subjective sensations amount to, what could possibly be evidence of it?
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine Location: NYC Man
User avatar
By Consul
#400904
Terrapin Station wrote: December 5th, 2021, 3:04 pm That, for example, is basically positing that there are unconscious states that are nevertheless MENTAL states somehow.
Propositional attitudes are a standard example of nonconscious mental states. Well, in the literature we find a distinction between "standing", dispositional PAs, which are nonconscious states, and occurrent PAs, which are conscious events. But I think PAs such as beliefs are never conscious events. There are no occurrent or experiential believings (belief-experiences), because there are only conscious belief-thoughts in the form of sentences of inner speech ("I believe that…"), which aren't beliefs themselves but only conscious expressions or indications of nonconscious beliefs. And this is equally true of all other kinds of PAs (knowledge, desire, hope…), none of which is ever part of the stream of my experience.
Location: Germany
User avatar
By Consul
#400905
Terrapin Station wrote: December 5th, 2021, 3:05 pm
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 4:58 pmTransitive consciousness aka perceptual consciousness can take place without experiential/phenomenal consciousness, i.e. it needn't involve and subjective sensations.
Something other than terms that we make up would have to be offered in support of that idea. What would consciousness that doesn't involve subjective sensations amount to, what could possibly be evidence of it?
Perceptual consciousness without phenomenal consciousness is phenomenally nonconscious perception. For example, protozoa (unicellular microorganisms) are capable of perceiving things and thus being perceptually conscious of them; but they are not also phenomenally conscious, in the sense that their sensory perceptions involve subjective sensations. Their perceptual consciousness consists in nothing more than an acquisition of objective sensory information.
Location: Germany
User avatar
By Terrapin Station
#400910
Consul wrote: December 5th, 2021, 5:26 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 5th, 2021, 3:04 pm That, for example, is basically positing that there are unconscious states that are nevertheless MENTAL states somehow.
Propositional attitudes are a standard example of nonconscious mental states. Well, in the literature we find a distinction between "standing", dispositional PAs, which are nonconscious states, and occurrent PAs, which are conscious events. But I think PAs such as beliefs are never conscious events. There are no occurrent or experiential believings (belief-experiences), because there are only conscious belief-thoughts in the form of sentences of inner speech ("I believe that…"), which aren't beliefs themselves but only conscious expressions or indications of nonconscious beliefs. And this is equally true of all other kinds of PAs (knowledge, desire, hope…), none of which is ever part of the stream of my experience.
What could count as evidence of having a "nonconscious belief"?
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine Location: NYC Man
User avatar
By Terrapin Station
#400911
Consul wrote: December 5th, 2021, 5:36 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 5th, 2021, 3:05 pm
Consul wrote: December 4th, 2021, 4:58 pmTransitive consciousness aka perceptual consciousness can take place without experiential/phenomenal consciousness, i.e. it needn't involve and subjective sensations.
Something other than terms that we make up would have to be offered in support of that idea. What would consciousness that doesn't involve subjective sensations amount to, what could possibly be evidence of it?
Perceptual consciousness without phenomenal consciousness is phenomenally nonconscious perception. For example, protozoa (unicellular microorganisms) are capable of perceiving things and thus being perceptually conscious of them; but they are not also phenomenally conscious, in the sense that their sensory perceptions involve subjective sensations. Their perceptual consciousness consists in nothing more than an acquisition of objective sensory information.
A nervous system responding to some stimulus isn't at all sufficient to call what the nervous system is doing "consciousness."
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine Location: NYC Man
User avatar
By Consul
#400913
Terrapin Station wrote: December 5th, 2021, 7:52 pmWhat could count as evidence of having a "nonconscious belief"?
For example, your being disposed to answer the question "Do you believe that p?" in the affirmative is evidence for your believing that p.
Generally, according to dispositionalism about propositional attitudes, they are dispositions to behavior; so their behavioral manifestations are evidence for them.

QUOTE>
"Whether a person S has a particular belief (individuated by a 'that' clause in its attribution) is determined by what S does, says, and thinks, and what S would do, say, and think in various circumstances, where "what S would do" may itself be specified intentionally. So, whether 'S believes that p' is true depends on there being relevant counterfactuals true of S. The antecedent of a relevant counterfactual may mention other of S's attitudes, but not, of course, the belief in question. If S is a speaker of a language, then the relevant counterfactuals concern her linguistic as well as her nonlinguistic behavior."

(Baker, Lynne Rudder. Explaining Atitudes. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995. pp. 154-5)
<QUOTE
Location: Germany
User avatar
By Consul
#400915
Terrapin Station wrote: December 5th, 2021, 7:53 pmA nervous system responding to some stimulus isn't at all sufficient to call what the nervous system is doing "consciousness."
Protozoa don't even have a nervous system. Anyway, generally speaking, being transitively, i.e. perceptually, conscious of something doesn't entail being intransitively, i.e. experientially/phenomenally, conscious. AI robots are perceivers but not experiencers.
Location: Germany
User avatar
By Terrapin Station
#400927
Consul wrote: December 5th, 2021, 9:26 pm For example, your being disposed to answer the question "Do you believe that p?" in the affirmative is evidence for your believing that p.
It's not evidence of my having a belief that P that's not conscious but somehow present as mental content prior to answering in the affirmative, though.

That would only follow if one were to think that a belief is somehow an an unchanging "nugget" of a thing that has to exist in its unchanging nature at all times, as a belief, which maybe one would think because of a combo of the law of conservation and a complete lack of awareness of processes or something. In other words, it's a stupid belief.

When you ask someone if they believe that P, they have conscious belief phenomena present when they answer in the affirmative. That's all that that is evidence of.
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine Location: NYC Man
User avatar
By Terrapin Station
#400928
Consul wrote: December 5th, 2021, 9:49 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 5th, 2021, 7:53 pmA nervous system responding to some stimulus isn't at all sufficient to call what the nervous system is doing "consciousness."
Protozoa don't even have a nervous system. Anyway, generally speaking, being transitively, i.e. perceptually, conscious of something doesn't entail being intransitively, i.e. experientially/phenomenally, conscious. AI robots are perceivers but not experiencers.
Robots, protozoa, etc. have no consciousness, and there's no reason aside from some very, very loose, anthropomorphic analogizing, which has no place in doing philosophy, to say that they do.
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine Location: NYC Man
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