Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[creation]

Because I am allowed to state the views that I currently have, which I have gained from my past observations.

Guess what another term is for "views you have"?

The ONLY accurate term is 'views'. But there are terms like; 'thoughts', 'opinions', 'values', 'perspectives', 'vision', 'outlook', among others, which are closely associated with the term 'views', but not with the EXACT SAME meaning. What is also obvious is that each and any of these previously gained results can be 'assumed' and/or 'believed' to be true. As I have previously said; You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. I just choose to neither believe, nor disbelieve.

See, one can have 'views' and either 'assume' or 'believe' that those views to be true. As for me, I have 'views' but I neither assume nor believe they are true. I also do not disbelieve they are true. If I was to do any of that, then I would CLOSE myself off to learning more and/or anew. I prefer to just remain OPEN always, so that I can keep learning and understanding, and this is why I NEVER believe nor disbelieve any thing.

One day you might come to understand this, and/or accept that is is what I DO. But, obviously, while you maintain your belief here, you will never learn, see, nor understand this.

Are you aware that while you believe some thing then you are NOT open to anything contrary to that belief, and, while you are believing some thing, then you are not fully open to learning and understanding more and/or anew in relation to that belief.

Lord knows where you got this idea from. Is that (at least part of the reason why) you say you have no beliefs?

YES. In fact it is probably the only reason why I CHOSE to stop believing things.

Say that I have a belief that my car is parked on Main Street. So when I leave where I'm at to drive somewhere I head to Main Street. This is only explainable if I believe I have a car, I believe my car is parked on Main Street, I believe that I can use my car to drive somewhere, etc.

Now, I may head to Main Street and discover that my car isn't there. Thus my belief will immediately change to the contrary: "My car is not parked on Main Street."

So, this is EXACTLY what I have just said, and have been saying all along.

Are you even aware that you just said what I have been saying all along?

Why would you think that one would not be open to changing to a contrary belief when one has a belief?

Did you maintain the belief that your car is on main street, when you discovered your car is not there? If not, then why not?

Your Honest answers will provide the answer to the question you asked me.

I NEVER said one would not be open to changing to a contrary belief when one has a belief at all. Look at the ACTUAL WORDS I write and use, and see if you can SEE the difference between what you are actually 'thinking', from what I am actually 'saying'.

You really need to think far deeper and look far further into your own self, and the way those actual thoughts within arise and recede.

The above example shows how easy that is.

Of course what you wrote and are thinking about is easy. But, what I wrote and am saying and meaning is different from what you are thinking and saying. This can be CLEARLY SEEN and EVIDENCED by the actual words that I have used and wrote.

But, if you think and believe that this is already settled, then so it is, to you. And, therefore there would be nothing more to discuss here.

But, if you would like to delve into this further, then I am more than willing and happy to.

[Terrapin Station]

I NEVER said one would not be open to changing to a contrary belief when one has a belief at all.

Then why are you writing things like this?

I have 'views' but I neither assume nor believe they are true. I also do not disbelieve they are true. If I was to do any of that, then I would CLOSE myself off to learning more and/or anew.

How are you figuring that beliefs close you off to learning more and/or anew?

[creation]

I NEVER said one would not be open to changing to a contrary belief when one has a belief at all.

Then why are you writing things like this?

I have 'views' but I neither assume nor believe they are true. I also do not disbelieve they are true. If I was to do any of that, then I would CLOSE myself off to learning more and/or anew.

How are you figuring that beliefs close you off to learning more and/or anew?

And I thought I was the slowest and simplest one here.

Because, as I said previously, while you are believing some thing, then you are CLOSED OFF to any thing contrary. As I have proven already.

Even your very own example proves what I have been saying, and disproves what you have been trying so hard to fight for.

Tell me what you could possibly be OPEN to, which is contrary to the belief, while you have and are maintaining that belief, itself?

[Terrapin Station]

Because, as I said previously, while you are believing some thing, then you are CLOSED OFF to any thing contrary. As I have proven already.

lol--I just asked you for the support of that claim. You're simply restating your claim. What is the support for it? How did you "prove" it?

Tell me what you could possibly be OPEN to, which is contrary to the belief, while you have and are maintaining that belief, itself?

At the moment, I'm open to the possibility of my car not being parked on York Street, while I have the belief that it is parked on York Street.

At the moment, I'm open to the possibility of having no yogurt in my refrigerator, while I have the belief that I have yogurt in my refrigerator.

At the moment, I'm open to the possibility that you'll actually understand and learn something from these examples, while I have the belief that you will not.

I could go on like this for thousand and thousands of beliefs I currently hold.

So can you explain why you'd say that one is closed off to anything contrary to one's beliefs while holding the belief?

[Terrapin Station]

You're not thinking that "Belief that P" amounts to thinking that it's impossible that not-P, are you?

[creation]

Because, as I said previously, while you are believing some thing, then you are CLOSED OFF to any thing contrary. As I have proven already.

lol--I just asked you for the support of that claim. You're simply restating your claim. What is the support for it? How did you "prove" it?

No one believes some thing is true, and at the exact same time believes it is not true.

And, while some one is believing some thing is true, they are not open to that thing not being true. Unless of course there is some evidence of this. You say you believe some things are true but also you say you are open to them not being true at all. Does this apply to every thing or just some things?

Also, why are you fighting so hard to maintain your beliefs here?

Tell me what you could possibly be OPEN to, which is contrary to the belief, while you have and are maintaining that belief, itself?

At the moment, I'm open to the possibility of my car not being parked on York Street, while I have the belief that it is parked on York Street.

So, you believe some thing is true but at the exact same time you are open to the fact that your belief is not even true to begin with.

Why would you believe some thing is true, when it may not even be true anyway?

Your open and honest answer would be much appreciated.

At the moment, I'm open to the possibility of having no yogurt in my refrigerator, while I have the belief that I have yogurt in my refrigerator.

Lol okay.

So, in that head, it believes some thing is there, but, the actual truth is, it may not even be there at all. Or, you believe some thing exists, but, in reality, that thing may not really even exist at all.

At the moment, I'm open to the possibility that you'll actually understand and learn something from these examples, while I have the belief that you will not.

But your examples are just telling me what you do, which I have known and understood since our first discussion. You believe some things are true, which comes across very strongly and very clearly. What else do you want me to learn and understand?

What it sounds like here is you trying your hardest to get me to believe what you believe is true. Some might be wondering why you seek out others to agree with and have the same beliefs as you?

Remember it is you who cannot learn, cannot accept, and cannot understand how and why I do not have any beliefs. This is because your belief that everyone MUST have beliefs to function is just to strong for you to be open to the possibility that this may not be true at all. Or, are you now going to tell us that it is possible to function without having beliefs?

I could go on like this for thousand and thousands of beliefs I currently hold.

Yes you could, and this will still always be about you, about how you think, and about what you do. But this is already very clear and obvious, and so there is no need for you to go on about you anymore.

So can you explain why you'd say that one is closed off to anything contrary to one's beliefs while holding the belief?

Because if and when a person is truly Honest with "them Self", then they realize that when they believe some thing is true, then they are not open to the fact that it may actually be false or wrong.

They only have to ask themselves; Why do I believe some thing is true? And then ask; Would I really believe is true, when and if it is not? And if you still say you would, then ask your Self, If what I believed is true, is not true, then would i want to hear it?

Now if you still want to believe things are true, when the actual truth is that they may in fact not be true at all, and that this is something that you would really do, but you do want to be informed of and when what you believe is true is in fact not true at all, then it is not true that human beings need to believe things in order to be able to function. i am living proof of this.

[creation]

You're not thinking that "Belief that P" amounts to thinking that it's impossible that not-P, are you?

Why would a person believe that P is only possible (true), if not-P is also possible (true)?

[Terrapin Station]

You say you believe some things are true but also you say you are open to them not being true at all. Does this apply to every thing or just some things?

Everything.

Also, why are you fighting so hard to maintain your beliefs here?

I'm not.

Maybe you're mistaking not being swayed by arguments I've heard a thousand times already or by really poorly-reasoned arguments as "fighting hard to maintain beliefs"?

So, you believe some thing is true but at the exact same time you are open to the fact that your belief is not even true to begin with.

Yes, of course. That's typically how beliefs work. How would you have lived in the world and interacted with others for however many years you have--you must be at least a teen if not much older, without knowing this already?

Why would you believe some thing is true, when it may not even be true anyway?

Again, I've explained this already. I don't know what in the world you're thinking that beliefs are. Maybe you've been ensconced in a religious environment where "belief" is primarily reserved for religious beliefs that the folks in question would say are unshakeable? That's not most beliefs, though. The vast majority of beliefs that people have are nothing like that.

People formulate beliefs on what they consider the best evidence, the best reasons available to them at a given time. Beliefs are necessary to act in any manner. You get a particular feeling and that is correlated with beliefs that (a) you need to go to the bathroom, (b) there is a bathroom that you can head to, (c) there will be a toilet in that bathroom, (d) you can relieve yourself in that toilet, (e) you can flush that toilet to get rid of your waste, etc.

All of those beliefs and more are required to head to a bathroom, utilize the toilet, flush it, etc. when you have the feeling in question.

Now, any one of those beliefs could turn out to be false, and everyone is going to be open to them being false (although some will be more surprising if they turn out to be false--for example, if you're at home and it turns out that there's no bathroom where you thought there was one, or there's no toilet in that bathroom), but if one didn't have the beliefs in the first place, one wouldn't know what to do when the feeling arises, one wouldn't bother to head to a bathroom, one wouldn't bother to look for the toilet in the bathroom, etc. The only reason we do those things is because of beliefs we have. But any one of those beliefs could turn out to be mistaken. We go by the best evidence, the best reasons we have at a given time.

So, in that head, it believes some thing is there, but, the actual truth is, it may not even be there at all. Or, you believe some thing exists, but, in reality, that thing may not really even exist at all.

Of course. Again, this is how beliefs work. How would you not be familiar with this?

Because if and when a person is truly Honest with "them Self", then they realize that when they believe some thing is true, then they are not open to the fact that it may actually be false or wrong.

Based on what, though? That's not how almost any beliefs actually work. You think that if someone is being honest with themselves, they won't accept that it felt to them like they had to go to the bathroom, but they didn't actually have to go?

You don't think that they'll accept that they believed the toilet would flush, but when they pulled the handle, it turned out to not flush (because whatever was broken or whatever)? People constantly have experiences like this, usually many over the course of every day.

They only have to ask themselves; Why do I believe some thing is true?

Because that's how our brain works, and it's how action is motivated. If we didn't believe that some action would achieve some result, then we'd never bother initiating the action. That's the case for every single action we do. It's why you press keys on the keyboard to make posts, etc. If you didn't believe that those keys would make letters appear on the screen, you wouldn't sit their pushing those little pieces of plastic down, etc.

[Terrapin Station]

You're not thinking that "Belief that P" amounts to thinking that it's impossible that not-P, are you?

Why would a person believe that P is only possible (true), if not-P is also possible (true)?

Because you can almost never have grounds that one option is possible. It's almost always the case that both P and not-P are possible.

Hence why possibility isn't sufficient for belief. We typically require reasons in addition to possibility for believing one option over the other. That doesn't negate that both options are possible.

[Terrapin Station]

Oops--big typo there. The first sentence should have read:

"Because you can almost never have grounds that one option is IMpossible".

[creation]

You say you believe some things are true but also you say you are open to them not being true at all. Does this apply to every thing or just some things?

Everything.

So, when you believe that your car is parked on york street do you also believe it is not parked on york street or do you believe one of them?

If you believe just one of them, then why that one?

Also, why are you fighting so hard to maintain your beliefs here?

I'm not.

Okay if you say so.

Maybe you're mistaking not being swayed by arguments I've heard a thousand times already or by really poorly-reasoned arguments as "fighting hard to maintain beliefs"?

I asked my clarifying question to you based on the actual words you have used.

So, you believe some thing is true but at the exact same time you are open to the fact that your belief is not even true to begin with.

Yes, of course. That's typically how beliefs work.

Are you aware that when some people say. "I believe [....] is true", then they believe that [....] is true, and thus they are not open to any thing contrary, and to them 'that is typically how beliefs work?

Or, does your version of "that is typically how 'it' works" is the absolute true version?

How would you have lived in the world and interacted with others for however many years you have--you must be at least a teen if not much older, without knowing this already?

But I grew out of believing things are true because of the harm and damage this causes this person, which can be clearly seen when one becomes Aware and evolves more.

Why would you believe some thing is true, when it may not even be true anyway?

Again, I've explained this already. I don't know what in the world you're thinking that beliefs are. Maybe you've been ensconced in a religious environment where "belief" is primarily reserved for religious beliefs that the folks in question would say are unshakeable? That's not most beliefs, though. The vast majority of beliefs that people have are nothing like that.

So, then WHY 'believe'?

What does the word 'believe' actually mean to you?

Would you believe in some thing if it was not true?

If yes, then WHY?

People formulate beliefs on what they consider the best evidence, the best reasons available to them at a given time.

I KNOW. This is extremely obvious.

Beliefs are necessary to act in any manner.

No they are not.

What beliefs do new born human babies have?

You get a particular feeling and that is correlated with beliefs that (a) you need to go to the bathroom, (b) there is a bathroom that you can head to, (c) there will be a toilet in that bathroom, (d) you can relieve yourself in that toilet, (e) you can flush that toilet to get rid of your waste, etc.

But I do NOT believe any thing of this. If I was to believe any of this, and it did not eventuate, then I would be disappointed, which would be a completely unnecessary feeling to have.

If you get a particular feeling that is correlated with beliefs, then so be it. Carry on the way you are. But I do not.

All of those beliefs and more are required to head to a bathroom, utilize the toilet, flush it, etc. when you have the feeling in question.

But those beliefs are NOT required to head to a bathroom at all. I am living proof of this.

Now, any one of those beliefs could turn out to be false, and everyone is going to be open to them being false (although some will be more surprising if they turn out to be false--for example, if you're at home and it turns out that there's no bathroom where you thought there was one,

Why did you change the words from 'belief' to 'thought' just now?

Did it seem, unknowing to you at the time when you wrote this quote (but maybe now on reflection), contradictory or counter-intuitive to use the word 'belief' where you used the word 'thought'?

or there's no toilet in that bathroom), but if one didn't have the beliefs in the first place, one wouldn't know what to do when the feeling arises, one wouldn't bother to head to a bathroom, one wouldn't bother to look for the toilet in the bathroom, etc.

And do you believe this to be absolutely true?

The only reason we do those things is because of beliefs we have.

Why do you use the 'we' word so often? Do you believe you can speak for EVERY one? Why do you not just speak for 'you' only?

You will have to remember most of the time you use the 'we' word that I am NOT included in that 'we'. Unless of course you really do believe that you can speak for EVERY one.

But any one of those beliefs could turn out to be mistaken. We go by the best evidence, the best reasons we have at a given time.

Which can ALL be done without any beliefs at all.

Of course. Again, this is how beliefs work. How would you not be familiar with this?

Well I MUST OF BEEN 'familiar' with this as I was the one who wrote this, and I was the one that has chosen NOT to do this, a while ago now.

Based on what, though?

On what the word 'believe' actually means.

That's not how almost any beliefs actually work.

What is the purpose of 'beliefs' if one is not going to believe that it is true?

You think that if someone is being honest with themselves, they won't accept that it felt to them like they had to go to the bathroom, but they didn't actually have to go?

You can 'try to' twist this around and deflect, but it does not work on me.

'Feeling' like going to the bathroom is very different than 'believing' one 'has to' that bathroom. One could just go out side, or go in the kitchen sink, or just wait a while till they went somewhere else.

Also, of course 'feeling' a need to urinate means that that one will actually have to go, some time, some where. But, if one believes that they have to go 'now', and go to the one and only very particular place, then that does not give them many options nor choices. So, if one is open to that they could wait and go later on, and/or wait to another place, then what they believe would be true would be not necessary and so to any belief would be non existent as well.

You don't think that they'll accept that they believed the toilet would flush, but when they pulled the handle, it turned out to not flush (because whatever was broken or whatever)? People constantly have experiences like this, usually many over the course of every day.

Do you really believe that you can tell us what EVERY one does?

Remember, just because you think and behave in certain ways does NOT mean that EVERY one thinks and behaves the same way.

Tell us what 'you' think and do for all you like, but, if and when you start trying to speak for others, then the more often you can and will be wrong.

Because that's how our brain works, and it's how action is motivated.

To me, a human being asking them self, 'Why do I believe some thing is true?', and they then answer that question by saying; "that's how our brain works", is a Truly foolish and stupid thing to do.

So, if action is motivated by beliefs, as you believe is the absolute Truth of things, then how do new born humans action behavior?

Obviously, because of how the brain actually works, new born humans do not have beliefs, so again how do new born humans action behavior?

Also, you said; "that is how our brain works". Actually how do 'our', human, brains work?

If we didn't believe that some action would achieve some result, then we'd never bother initiating the action.

Is that what 'you', and some others, do?

Well, just to inform you I do not do this at all. For example, I am performing some action and I neither believe nor disbelieve this will achieve some result. I just KNOW this will achieve 'some' result.

That's the case for every single action we do. It's why you press keys on the keyboard to make posts, etc. If you didn't believe that those keys would make letters appear on the screen, you wouldn't sit their pushing those little pieces of plastic down, etc.

Why do you read the words after you pushed the keys on the keyboard?

If you believe that those keys would make letters appear on the screen, then why check?

There is no use checking to see if you made a mistake or not, because if you believed you are pressing the right keys, which, according to your logic, is exactly what you do do because you believe you would not be motivated to action. Why would you press the wrong key if you believed you are pressing the right key, which you must be believing you are doing because you would not bother initiating the action? So, if you believe you are pressing the right key, then why would you have to check what you have written?

Are you absolutely 100% certain that you have to believe certain things to be true before you could be bothered initiating any action?

What belief do you have prior to initiating the action of feeling like you need to go to the bathroom?

Are you at all aware that I am motivated to do a lot of things without every having to believe nor disbelieve any thing at all?

[creation]

Why would a person believe that P is only possible (true), if not-P is also possible (true)?

Because you can almost never have grounds that one option is IMpossible. It's almost always the case that both P and not-P are possible.

So, it is possible that you can be right and you can be wrong here?

Is it possible that it is possible for human beings to function without beliefs, or is this just not possible?

You appear to be fighting very rigorously that it is impossible for human beings to function without beliefs.

Hence why possibility isn't sufficient for belief. We typically require reasons in addition to possibility for believing one option over the other. That doesn't negate that both options are possible.

Again, that might be what 'you', and some others, do. But this believing one thing over another thing is not what I do.

[Terrapin Station]

So, when you believe that your car is parked on york street do you also believe it is not parked on york street

No. Rather I'm open to the possibility that it's not parked on York Street. That's what you've made comments about, and what you asked me--about being open to the contrary. "Open to P" is different than "believing that P."

I didn't read anything in this post or the other one other than what I'm quoting. I'm not spending that much time on this when you keep making longer posts and just want to argue.

[Terrapin Station]

Is it possible that it is possible for human beings to function without beliefs,

Sure, but you'd need to support that, you'd need to plausibly explain how it would work.

[creation]

So, when you believe that your car is parked on york street do you also believe it is not parked on york street

No. Rather I'm open to the possibility that it's not parked on York Street. That's what you've made comments about, and what you asked me--about being open to the contrary. "Open to P" is different than "believing that P."

So, if you believe P is true, but at the exact same time you also say you are open to P being not true at all, then why?

Why do you accept some thing is true when it could be false all along anyway?

And, why choose to believe P is true and be open to P not being true, when you could choose to believe P is not true and be open to P is true?

I didn't read anything in this post or the other one other than what I'm quoting. I'm not spending that much time on this when you keep making longer posts and just want to argue.

And you "coincidentally" not reading 'that' what proves you wrong, and/or 'that' which you do not want to answer and respond to, some would say proves how much actual belief and conviction you have in what you say and write here.

Also, what is a philosophy forum for if not to argue?