Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Jklint]

Free Will and the extend to which it may be free is not in the least decided by a non-existent god or some self-created abstraction of philosophy but only so in terms of neuro-chemistry, specifically neuroparasitology which, among other things, examines what constitutes will and how we decide.

Yes, it's a big step down speaking of our supposed Will so recklessly engendered or manipulated by possible parasites and worms in the brain instead of something god-given or god-denied or some other profound never resolved Gordian Knot of philosophy.

[JesusTruth]

Of course everyone has a free will. Everyone can decide what he is going to do. And God simply already knows what decision you're going to make.

[Sy Borg]

Everyone can decide what he is going to do.

You are completely free, aside from matters concerning your organs and body systems, your environment, your home, neighbours, workplace and society.

Thus, you will be free to scratch your backside (as long as no one is watching). But is even that trivial freedom a free choice or a one that is driven by physical needs?

[evolution]

How 'you' can, and DO, have free will is because of who and what 'you' ACTUALLY ARE.

Also, just because some 'Thing' KNOWS ALL, then how does what they KNOW actually effect what 'you' have/are?

[LuckyR]

Of course everyone has a free will. Everyone can decide what he is going to do. And God simply already knows what decision you're going to make.

Ah yes, the omniscience fallacy. Don't think about it too much or it'll fall apart before your eyes.

[psyreporter]

A recent study suggests that particles can become quantum entangled by post-selection (a correlation between particles in the future).

PARTICLES on opposite ends of the cosmos can link quantum mechanical hands when the particles are correlated in the future.

The effect is based on work by Yakir Aharonov, also at Chapman University, in the 1960s. He and his colleagues showed that, mathematically speaking, a system’s properties can be influenced by measurements made in the future. Aharonov has been studying the strange consequences of this “post-selection” process ever since.

Now Aharonov, Tollaksen, Sandu Popescu and their colleagues show mathematically that post-selection should link any two particles every time their quantum properties are measured, no matter where they are in the cosmos. In other words, all particles everywhere could be linked, provided they have been post-selected in some way. “Is that mind-blowing or is that mind-blowing?” Tollaksen says.

Pigeon paradox reveals cosmic connections
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... nnections/

If such is the case, then free will may not stand on its own as separated from something that is determined beforehand.

[Ecurb]

I must believe in free will. I have no choice.

[Sculptor1]

I must believe in free will. I have no choice.

God has made me such that I cannot suspend my belief in determinism and cannot accept the existence of god.

[Sculptor1]

Pigeon paradox reveals cosmic connections
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... nnections/

I call this branch of science QBS. I think science has relly lost its way here. They have uncovered some phenomena that they cannot yet explain. This is common throughout the history of science, but never before (or at least not in recent times), has science concluded with their lack of knowledge - nay lack of imagination- to replace decent theories with magical explanations.
The result is a unrelenting litany of childish psuedo-scientific QBS made for the mass market magazine reading twitterati who lap this stuff up, like a cheap whore swallowing.

[Sy Borg]

I must believe in free will. I have no choice.

Hehe, one might say you were compelled :)

[BobS]

Assuming that God is "all-knowing", it doesn't necessarily follow that God knows the future even in regard to the "free choices" that anyone makes. "All-knowing" can simply mean that God knows everything that can be known, with the question of what can and cannot be known remaining to be seen. But let's assume that God in fact has such foreknowledge.

Since God has foreknowledge of all of my future choices, God certainly knows what I'm going to choose to eat for dinner tomorrow (or whether I'll choose to eat dinner at all). Being omnipotent, God also has the power to tell me today what my choice tomorrow is going to be. Assume that God does tell me today. Can I now change my choice while there's still time? If I can't, then I don't have free will. If I can and do change it, then God was misinformed.

The problem can't be avoided by claiming that God also knew how I would react after I was told what my choice was going to be, because the starting point is that God specifically knew and told me what my actual choice was going to be.

Also, I assume that anyone who takes such an extreme view of what God knows adopts an equally extreme view of God’s power. God's omnipotence therefore includes the power to have created any of a number of different universes in which I made/will make any of a number of different choices. Knowing what all of those potential choices were, he chose to create this particular universe, with all of the specific choices that I made/will make in it. Calling those choices "free" strikes me as a rather peculiar use of the word. If God decided ahead of time how I was going make every single choice in my life, he caused those choices without any input from me. I call that predestination.

[LuckyR]

Assuming that God is "all-knowing", it doesn't necessarily follow that God knows the future even in regard to the "free choices" that anyone makes. "All-knowing" can simply mean that God knows everything that can be known, with the question of what can and cannot be known remaining to be seen. But let's assume that God in fact has such foreknowledge.

Since God has foreknowledge of all of my future choices, God certainly knows what I'm going to choose to eat for dinner tomorrow (or whether I'll choose to eat dinner at all). Being omnipotent, God also has the power to tell me today what my choice tomorrow is going to be. Assume that God does tell me today. Can I now change my choice while there's still time? If I can't, then I don't have free will. If I can and do change it, then God was misinformed.

The problem can't be avoided by claiming that God also knew how I would react after I was told what my choice was going to be, because the starting point is that God specifically knew and told me what my actual choice was going to be.

Also, I assume that anyone who takes such an extreme view of what God knows adopts an equally extreme view of God’s power. God's omnipotence therefore includes the power to have created any of a number of different universes in which I made/will make any of a number of different choices. Knowing what all of those potential choices were, he chose to create this particular universe, with all of the specific choices that I made/will make in it. Calling those choices "free" strikes me as a rather peculiar use of the word. If God decided ahead of time how I was going make every single choice in my life, he caused those choices without any input from me. I call that predestination.

Good job focusing on the silliness of the omniscience and omnipotence concepts of gods. Devoting energy trying to contort logic to accommodate such ideas, while humorous to observe are essentially a waste of time.

[Do Not Duplicate]

The fundamental flaw in the OP's scenario is assuming time in "God's eye-view" is the same as time in our perspective. In the divine perspective, all moments are one, there is no linear progression, eternity is now, now is all, etc. We are stuck in a linear progression of time which includes a Before and After, and a one-directional "arrow" -- where the Now, instead of being eternal, is advancing forwards from "past" to "future" broken up into an infinite series of moments. Since we're stuck in this mode (with rare experiences of "bending" out of it evanescently, in mystic experience or LSD or dreams, etc.), the OP's premise assumes that God's truth about what we, in our free will, will choose can be communicated to us -- but in order for us to receive that communication, that communication has to be broken down into making sense by the rules of our framework, since we do not have divine consciousness (other than those fleeting experiences a few have, see above). As soon as God's communication might come to us, it will be broken down and produce fallacious paradoxes.

[BobS]

I didn't assume anything about God's perspective. I just rode with what some people believe: God foresees things and has the power to tell people (e.g. his prophets) what he sees. I then pointed out that it was incoherent to extend that power of foresight to choices that, by hypothesis, are freely made.

But I'm curious. Does the Bible actually say that to God "all moments are one"? Or is that simply how (some) believers interpret words such as "everlasting"?

[Nitai]

God knows how you will react according to you conditioning but you can go beyond you conditioning by Love of God, then it really becomes interesting, for Him and for you.
So you have Free will to either choose your conditioning or to choose to know and Love God.