Philosophy Discussion Forums

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 12th, 2023, 1:50 pm Nice reads, though they do use prison as the backup when the alternatives fail, so the answer to the OP would be: yes, we need prisons (just less of them).

I would agree that some way of keeping an offender away from the rest of society is probably necessary, sadly. A prison is one such way. But there are other ways, as we have been discussing here, and sometimes those other ways can work better than the vicious and vengeful ways we currently practice. I think the main point that is emerging here is that evidence-based ways of dealing with anti-social citizens are worth trying? The War on Crime is failing, or has failed, just as the War on Drugs, and all the other Wars on Stuff have failed.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 13th, 2023, 9:10 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 12th, 2023, 1:50 pm Nice reads, though they do use prison as the backup when the alternatives fail, so the answer to the OP would be: yes, we need prisons (just less of them).

I would agree that some way of keeping an offender away from the rest of society is probably necessary, sadly. A prison is one such way. But there are other ways, as we have been discussing here, and sometimes those other ways can work better than the vicious and vengeful ways we currently practice. I think the main point that is emerging here is that evidence-based ways of dealing with anti-social citizens are worth trying? The War on Crime is failing, or has failed, just as the War on Drugs, and all the other Wars on Stuff have failed.

The failure or success of those strategies depend on the goal you are seeking. At the micro level getting criminal X off of the street where they commit Y crimes is a success. Usually claims of failure are through examination of macro statistics.

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 13th, 2023, 1:30 pm The failure or success of those strategies depend on the goal you are seeking. At the micro level getting criminal X off of the street where they commit Y crimes is a success. Usually claims of failure are through examination of macro statistics.

The long-term view is not so much getting criminal X off the streets, but in taking action(s) that result in crimes Y not being committed? That's long-term, as opposed to "macro", I think?

Clarification request: are you saying here that an abusive father can cause something like "Antisocial Personality Disorder"?

In my experience I have seen such things occur, as well as paranoid schizophrenia, psychopathy etc. naturally something caused it in the given father too! I suspect that many disorders are legacy caused e.g. warriors back in the day would get injuries and become as many soldiers do, psychopathic. Then they beat their sons who grow up thinking the world is like that, and that violence is the way to overcome it.

I do believe there is hope! Usually there are trigger events, without which the son of a soldier could be ‘normal’ [without disorders].

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Prison is expensive and turns peoples lives upside down, making it very difficult to get jobs and a normal life back again. It all goes in degrees; e.g. for bullying on line, take peoples phones off them for a year, to prevent almost all bullying on line, then take away anonymity – so you know who is saying stuff to you. Same for malicious content. Yes there would be privacy issues, but the main suppliers like twitter and facebook, would have the details which could be given to police etc. mostly such things are crimes caused by opportunity! People think they can get away with it and get a power trip [we are animals after all], so they do it.

For more serious crime it is more difficult, many of those american entrapment schemes are imho designed to fill the jails up with slave labour.

I do think that prisoners doing all their own growing of food and making their own clothes etc is acceptable. I don’t think 23 hour lock-ups is good at all, as Daniel Dennet said, ‘neurons get bored’.

Pattern-chaser wrote:Clarification request: are you saying here that an abusive father can cause something like "Antisocial Personality Disorder"?

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 4:36 am In my experience I have seen such things occur...

I am far from expert on any aspect of this, so I'll defer to someone who appears to know what they're talking about:

Abstract

Childhood abuse is a risk factor for the development of externalizing characteristics and disorders, including antisocial personality disorder and psychopathy. However, the precise relationships between particular types of childhood maltreatment and subsequent antisocial and psychopathic traits remain unclear. Using a large sample of incarcerated adult male criminal offenders (n = 183), the current study confirmed that severity of overall childhood maltreatment was linked to severity of both psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder in adulthood. Moreover, this relationship was particularly strong for physical abuse and the antisocial facet of psychopathy. Sexual abuse history was uniquely related to juvenile conduct disorder severity, rather than adult psychopathy or antisocial behaviors. Additionally, there was a significantly stronger relationship between childhood maltreatment and juvenile conduct disorder than between childhood maltreatment and ASPD or psychopathy. These findings bolster and clarify the link between childhood maltreatment and antisocial behavior later in life.

link

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑February 18th, 2023, 4:36 am

Clarification request: are you saying here that an abusive father can cause something like "Antisocial Personality Disorder"?

In my experience I have seen such things occur, as well as paranoid schizophrenia, psychopathy etc. naturally something caused it in the given father too! I suspect that many disorders are legacy caused e.g. warriors back in the day would get injuries and become as many soldiers do, psychopathic. Then they beat their sons who grow up thinking the world is like that, and that violence is the way to overcome it.

I do believe there is hope! Usually there are trigger events, without which the son of a soldier could be ‘normal’ [without disorders].

------------------------

Prison is expensive and turns peoples lives upside down, making it very difficult to get jobs and a normal life back again. It all goes in degrees; e.g. for bullying on line, take peoples phones off them for a year, to prevent almost all bullying on line, then take away anonymity – so you know who is saying stuff to you. Same for malicious content. Yes there would be privacy issues, but the main suppliers like twitter and facebook, would have the details which could be given to police etc. mostly such things are crimes caused by opportunity! People think they can get away with it and get a power trip [we are animals after all], so they do it.

For more serious crime it is more difficult, many of those american entrapment schemes are imho designed to fill the jails up with slave labour.

I do think that prisoners doing all their own growing of food and making their own clothes etc is acceptable. I don’t think 23 hour lock-ups is good at all, as Daniel Dennet said, ‘neurons get bored’.

An excellent example of the difference between association masquerading as causation.

I am not saying that studies are bad, just that a more direct reference to real people and events tells the story directly. That generalities and particulars, Ideas and opinions get lost in the ambiguity of generalisation. We are people, we need also to be able to relate to more direct stories and issues, and it gets the message home sometimes better.

Percentages are the most abused and misused maths out there, and generalistic results are more widely interpenetrative.

So no I don’t accept that the psychobabble is a better answer ~ though also useful, to people who can understand it! especially when I have known people who speak for decades to psychologists and don’t improve much, then I talk to them directly and they tell me it really helped to speak to someone in English!

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑February 19th, 2023, 7:55 am Percentages are the most abused and misused maths out there, and generalistic results are more widely interpenetrative.

I think it's statistics you are referring to, isn't it? And yes, it is a widely misunderstood field, whose teachings are widely abused for bad, often personal, reasons. And, as you imply, its results are often only useful when we consider the "general" picture, not specific individuals.

Earthellism answers the question does society need prisons? The answer of course is yes and we need more criminals getting the lethal injection for capital murder. Here on earthell we live among human devils-humans who chose not to believe in God or Hell or that humans have a soul and choose to hurt or kill innocent human beings. They must be removed from society and some should be executed. The rash of mass shootings are due to copy cats who are suicidal for reasons of their own but want to get their 15 minutes of fame by killing innocent people before they die to give all of us the middle finger. All those who commit mass murder must die by police or lethal injection-no excuses. This will help stop the copy cats and not giving them any press for their murders and cremating them and dumping them in the trash and never allow them any funeral or burial near other humans. Human devils love life in prison and are orgasmic to be alive and their victims are dead. Put human devils who commit mass murder to death ASAP and then the copy cats will slow and stop.

Darshan wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 12:16 am Earthellism answers the question does society need prisons? The answer of course is yes and we need more criminals getting the lethal injection for capital murder. Here on earthell we live among human devils-humans who chose not to believe in God or Hell or that humans have a soul and choose to hurt or kill innocent human beings. They must be removed from society and some should be executed. The rash of mass shootings are due to copy cats who are suicidal for reasons of their own but want to get their 15 minutes of fame by killing innocent people before they die to give all of us the middle finger. All those who commit mass murder must die by police or lethal injection-no excuses. This will help stop the copy cats and not giving them any press for their murders and cremating them and dumping them in the trash and never allow them any funeral or burial near other humans. Human devils love life in prison and are orgasmic to be alive and their victims are dead. Put human devils who commit mass murder to death ASAP and then the copy cats will slow and stop.

Are their attitudes and actions so very different from yours, then? There are probably reasons why these people behave as they do. Do you think that addressing those reasons might, just possibly, offer an alternative to answering murder with ... murder?

Mass murders kill because they enjoy watching someone die in front of them because they crave innocent blood because they are demonic and chose not to believe in humanity.

Darshan wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 2:17 pm Mass murders kill because they enjoy watching someone die in front of them because they crave innocent blood because they are demonic and chose not to believe in humanity.

If this is the definition you choose to use, then you will treat a tiny minority with extreme severity, and miss a huge number of criminals who do not conform to your comic-book description...?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 6th, 2023, 11:21 am

Darshan wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 2:17 pm Mass murders kill because they enjoy watching someone die in front of them because they crave innocent blood because they are demonic and chose not to believe in humanity.

If this is the definition you choose to use, then you will treat a tiny minority with extreme severity, and miss a huge number of criminals who do not conform to your comic-book description...?

I am continuously amused by amateur armchair "experts" who have rock solid opinions on topics that professionals in the field struggle to find consensus on.

Darshan wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 2:17 pm Mass murders kill because they enjoy watching someone die in front of them because they crave innocent blood because they are demonic and chose not to believe in humanity.

How many people in this century do you think this represents.
Go on you have 2 hands to count on so give it your best shot.

Please help stop the epidemic of mass murderers killing innocent people every day in the USA. Try to understand their mindset and why they enjoy and crave to kill as many people as possible. They all have the trifecta of evil and are truly demonic. To them, life in prison is not punishment. Only their death will stop the mass murderers.