Philosophy Discussion Forums

in my mind, in a causal universe it is impossible to be guilty because you cant do anything which is not caused by external factors. equally, you can put as many people in jail as you like, societal crime only occurs outside and the reasons for it are still there after you have removed someone.

e.g. an entrapment scheme i saw on a documentary, had an unlocked car with a visible wallet a phone and some loose money on the seat. within moments someone had noticed and gone to steal the stuff. rinse and repeat endlessly. no matter how many people you place in that envrionment, they either react or dont, ergo the causes remain and the crimes continue to occur!

i would say that the way to tackle crime is to remove the causes, individuals are irrelevent except when there is a culture of crime e.g. down a street of in a given family. which also wont occur if you remove the causes - the opportunities.

better identification though contraversial, would stop a lot of stuuf happening in the digital world for sure.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 3:29 pm in my mind, in a causal universe it is impossible to be guilty because you cant do anything which is not caused by external factors. equally, you can put as many people in jail as you like, societal crime only occurs outside and the reasons for it are still there after you have removed someone.

e.g. an entrapment scheme i saw on a documentary, had an unlocked car with a visible wallet a phone and some loose money on the seat. within moments someone had noticed and gone to steal the stuff. rinse and repeat endlessly. no matter how many people you place in that envrionment, they either react or dont, ergo the causes remain and the crimes continue to occur!

i would say that the way to tackle crime is to remove the causes, individuals are irrelevent except when there is a culture of crime e.g. down a street of in a given family. which also wont occur if you remove the causes - the opportunities.

better identification though contraversial, would stop a lot of stuuf happening in the digital world for sure.

You can only remove some of the causes. ... Unless you intend to prevent the possession of riches — wallet, phone and money, in your example — the temptation will remain. Someone will always have something that someone else covets, unless we all have exactly the same.

But this does not devalue your basic theme, that thefts do not happen randomly; they have causes. And some of those causes can be removed, which would surely make a great deal of sense? Exactly as you say.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑February 3rd, 2023, 3:29 pm in my mind, in a causal universe it is impossible to be guilty because you cant do anything which is not caused by external factors. equally, you can put as many people in jail as you like, societal crime only occurs outside and the reasons for it are still there after you have removed someone.

e.g. an entrapment scheme i saw on a documentary, had an unlocked car with a visible wallet a phone and some loose money on the seat. within moments someone had noticed and gone to steal the stuff. rinse and repeat endlessly. no matter how many people you place in that envrionment, they either react or dont, ergo the causes remain and the crimes continue to occur!

i would say that the way to tackle crime is to remove the causes, individuals are irrelevent except when there is a culture of crime e.g. down a street of in a given family. which also wont occur if you remove the causes - the opportunities.

better identification though contraversial, would stop a lot of stuuf happening in the digital world for sure.

This is why Abrahamic religions exert social control. We are supposed to have Free Will that overrides causality, and thus rationalises the punitive measures exerted by our betters.

Hi pattern chaser and belindi

Well there is easily enough money in many western countries at least, to make sure people have stuff like phones etc, which most people do. I think the worst crimes are caused by poverty, racism/prejudice and uncontrolled instinct ~ which is where what belindi said comes into play.

e.g. men who have total power over women [and children], have little to stop them going by their uncontrolled instincts. We are beneath it all animals to a degree, and animals will use force for everything. Culture can be a good tool of restraint, but what happens when a culture is accepting of terrible behaviour like child abuse? Such things can be like a drug, and yet people know when they are doing something immoral, but their culture says its ok. Then there is a drive which goes with all that, they then need a scapegoat, someone else who they can call more evil than them [somehow] e.g. the west. Then the said ‘drive’ makes them get into a vehicle and ‘drive’ into innocent pedestrians, without knowing anything about them, who they are, what they believe and what they do etc.

I really don’t know what one can do about culture, as it seams to be an excuse for many wrongs. However, what we can do is confront them with truths e.g. girls wearing short skirts is not as evil as raping underage girls and children, and that what they are doing is morally wrong. Can’t remember anyone doing that though! If a govt made anti culture remarks it would not be a good thing at all, probably massively inflate the situation.

EDUCATION is most important here, not just in schools ~ which should I think teach ethics, morals and philosophy of some basic kind.

I don’t know if religion is the answer, because that would be dualistic and separate those of other religions. Perhaps teach bits and bobs from all the main religions?

Btw, I do think we have free will but also that we have to learn and our brains have instruction to help with all that. For me its a bit like driving a car, at first you have to do everything consciously, which is a nightmare, but then it becomes more instinctual and easier.

Said instruction is also much of the problem with instincts of course.


if we see it all causily, it removes things like ad hominem content from the argument and we can trat things more universally.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑February 6th, 2023, 4:43 am Hi pattern chaser and belindi

Well there is easily enough money in many western countries at least, to make sure people have stuff like phones etc, which most people do. I think the worst crimes are caused by poverty, racism/prejudice and uncontrolled instinct ~ which is where what belindi said comes into play.

e.g. men who have total power over women [and children], have little to stop them going by their uncontrolled instincts. We are beneath it all animals to a degree, and animals will use force for everything. Culture can be a good tool of restraint, but what happens when a culture is accepting of terrible behaviour like child abuse? Such things can be like a drug, and yet people know when they are doing something immoral, but their culture says its ok. Then there is a drive which goes with all that, they then need a scapegoat, someone else who they can call more evil than them [somehow] e.g. the west. Then the said ‘drive’ makes them get into a vehicle and ‘drive’ into innocent pedestrians, without knowing anything about them, who they are, what they believe and what they do etc.

I really don’t know what one can do about culture, as it seams to be an excuse for many wrongs. However, what we can do is confront them with truths e.g. girls wearing short skirts is not as evil as raping underage girls and children, and that what they are doing is morally wrong. Can’t remember anyone doing that though! If a govt made anti culture remarks it would not be a good thing at all, probably massively inflate the situation.

EDUCATION is most important here, not just in schools ~ which should I think teach ethics, morals and philosophy of some basic kind.

I don’t know if religion is the answer, because that would be dualistic and separate those of other religions. Perhaps teach bits and bobs from all the main religions?

You are aware that around 3% of the population has Antisocial Personality Disorder, right? It's present in over a third of first time offenders.

That's about 10 million potential criminals without invoking poverty, racism, education or religion.

right, add that and similar conditions to the list then! it doesn't take the other issues away, we have to look at every facet of the equation. secondly, ask WHAT CAUSES such conditions ~ moat of them begin at home, often with 1 violent father who can cause generations of damage.

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 6th, 2023, 5:16 pm You are aware that around 3% of the population has Antisocial Personality Disorder, right? It's present in over a third of first time offenders.

That's about 10 million potential criminals without invoking poverty, racism, education or religion.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑February 8th, 2023, 11:42 pm ...secondly, ask WHAT CAUSES such conditions ~ moat of them begin at home, often with 1 violent father who can cause generations of damage.

Clarification request: are you saying here that an abusive father can cause something like "Antisocial Personality Disorder"?

If you are, isn't that a little bit like saying that autism is caused by vaccines (it isn't!)?

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 10th, 2023, 12:55 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 6th, 2023, 5:16 pm You are aware that around 3% of the population has Antisocial Personality Disorder, right? It's present in over a third of first time offenders.

That's about 10 million potential criminals without invoking poverty, racism, education or religion.

amorphos_ii wrote: ↑February 8th, 2023, 11:42 pm ...secondly, ask WHAT CAUSES such conditions ~ moat of them begin at home, often with 1 violent father who can cause generations of damage.

Clarification request: are you saying here that an abusive father can cause something like "Antisocial Personality Disorder"?

If you are, isn't that a little bit like saying that autism is caused by vaccines (it isn't!)?

Exactly. My point being that even in a utopian thought experiment, not all crime can be prevented through perfect upbringing. Thus the need for prisons, even in utopia.

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 10th, 2023, 1:48 pm My point being that even in a utopian thought experiment, not all crime can be prevented through perfect upbringing. Thus the need for prisons, even in utopia.

Returning to the topic title, I don't think this introduces the necessity for prisons, although imprisonment is one way to approach such matters. Rather, I think it introduces a need for some kind of constraints or control — a culturally-determined human need, that is, not a formally-reasoned or -justified 'need'. There are sanctions other than imprisonment that might/could be applied. They might even work better, depending on what our aim is (deterrence, revenge, rehabilitation, re-education...).

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 11th, 2023, 9:50 am There are sanctions other than imprisonment that might/could be applied. They might even work better, depending on what our aim is (deterrence, revenge, rehabilitation, re-education...).

By now, society should have had an answer to crime and punishment. Maybe this quote from Desmond Tutu could be helpful.....

There comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people out of the river. We need to go upstream and find out why they're falling in

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 11th, 2023, 9:50 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 10th, 2023, 1:48 pm My point being that even in a utopian thought experiment, not all crime can be prevented through perfect upbringing. Thus the need for prisons, even in utopia.

Returning to the topic title, I don't think this introduces the necessity for prisons, although imprisonment is one way to approach such matters. Rather, I think it introduces a need for some kind of constraints or control — a culturally-determined human need, that is, not a formally-reasoned or -justified 'need'. There are sanctions other than imprisonment that might/could be applied. They might even work better, depending on what our aim is (deterrence, revenge, rehabilitation, re-education...).

I don't disagree. Thus there is a need for something. Prisons are one. I'd love to hear about others.

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 11th, 2023, 4:27 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 11th, 2023, 9:50 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 10th, 2023, 1:48 pm My point being that even in a utopian thought experiment, not all crime can be prevented through perfect upbringing. Thus the need for prisons, even in utopia.

Returning to the topic title, I don't think this introduces the necessity for prisons, although imprisonment is one way to approach such matters. Rather, I think it introduces a need for some kind of constraints or control — a culturally-determined human need, that is, not a formally-reasoned or -justified 'need'. There are sanctions other than imprisonment that might/could be applied. They might even work better, depending on what our aim is (deterrence, revenge, rehabilitation, re-education...).

I don't disagree. Thus there is a need for something. Prisons are one. I'd love to hear about others.

Open prisons

Electronic tags

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 10th, 2023, 1:48 pm My point being that even in a utopian thought experiment, not all crime can be prevented through perfect upbringing. Thus the need for prisons, even in utopia.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 11th, 2023, 9:50 am Returning to the topic title, I don't think this introduces the necessity for prisons, although imprisonment is one way to approach such matters. Rather, I think it introduces a need for some kind of constraints or control — a culturally-determined human need, that is, not a formally-reasoned or -justified 'need'. There are sanctions other than imprisonment that might/could be applied. They might even work better, depending on what our aim is (deterrence, revenge, rehabilitation, re-education...).

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 11th, 2023, 4:27 pm I don't disagree. Thus there is a need for something. Prisons are one. I'd love to hear about others.

Here's a thing from the UN. I haven't read it, but it looks worthwhile from a quick scan.

Handbook of basic principles and promising practices on Alternatives to Imprisonment

Here are a couple of other links I found:

• Manchester Guardian: We know that prison doesn’t work. So what are the alternatives?
• Wikipedia: Alternatives to imprisonment

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 12th, 2023, 12:05 pm

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 10th, 2023, 1:48 pm My point being that even in a utopian thought experiment, not all crime can be prevented through perfect upbringing. Thus the need for prisons, even in utopia.

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 11th, 2023, 9:50 am Returning to the topic title, I don't think this introduces the necessity for prisons, although imprisonment is one way to approach such matters. Rather, I think it introduces a need for some kind of constraints or control — a culturally-determined human need, that is, not a formally-reasoned or -justified 'need'. There are sanctions other than imprisonment that might/could be applied. They might even work better, depending on what our aim is (deterrence, revenge, rehabilitation, re-education...).

LuckyR wrote: ↑February 11th, 2023, 4:27 pm I don't disagree. Thus there is a need for something. Prisons are one. I'd love to hear about others.

Here's a thing from the UN. I haven't read it, but it looks worthwhile from a quick scan.

Handbook of basic principles and promising practices on Alternatives to Imprisonment

Here are a couple of other links I found:

• Manchester Guardian: We know that prison doesn’t work. So what are the alternatives?
• Wikipedia: Alternatives to imprisonment

Nice reads, though they do use prison as the backup when the alternatives fail, so the answer to the OP would be: yes, we need prisons (just less of them).