Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

Does anyone here think an entire woman who falls in love with another woman would go to all the trouble of turning herself into an entire man, so she can make love to her? I don't !

I think it much more probable she would change her gender identity to suit the other woman who is the object of her love or lust.
It's comparatively easy to change gender identity as gender does not exist .

My understanding is that transmen tend to start out as lesbian, and their subsequent gender change severely strains any existing lesbian relationship, as you'd expect.

Gender identity definitely exists. Don't believe the postmodernists. Check out the tragic case of John/Joan. You cannot push a gender onto a person to whom it's not suited without doing damage, no matter how strong the attempted conditioning.

A always, thought experiments can yield interesting results, when it comes to putting oneself in another's shoes. To imagine how it might feel to have to live in an unsuitable gender, what if you had been forced by circumstance be a member of the National Front? You would need to pretend to go along with other members to avoid trouble, but that doesn't mean you'd find the situation tolerable. You might only last a while before feeling you have to "come out".

As Frank Zappa song goes, You Are What You Is. Or as John Lennon sung, "Whatever gets you through the night is alright".

[Consul]

Gender identity definitely exists.

What is gender identity?

In her new book, Judith Butler writes that…

"'Gender identity' is a deeply felt sense of how one fits in the gendered scheme of things, the lived reality of one’s own body in the world. 'Gender expression' refers to all the manifest characteristics that are socially defined as masculine, feminine, or another gendered category."

(Butler, Judith. Who's Afraid of Gender? New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2024. p. 185)

By the way, she changed her mind: Now she says (implicitly) that gender identity is different from gender expression, and 25 years ago she said that the former is reducible to the latter:

"There is no gender identity behind the expressions of gender; that identity is performatively constituted by the very "expressions" that are said to be its results."

(Butler, Judith. Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity. New York: Routledge, 1999. p. 33)

Moreover, in her new book she also writes that…

"Whatever else gender means, it surely names for some a felt sense of the body, in its surfaces and depths, a lived sense of being a body in the world in this way."

(Butler, Judith. Who's Afraid of Gender? New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2024. p. 29)

So both gender and gender identity are defined by her as a "felt sense". Is it one and the same felt sense, such that gender = gender identity, or are there two different felt senses, such that gender ≠ gender identity? You won't find the answer in her book!

Anyway, gender cannot be the same as gender identity. For if gender identity is the (inner) sense of one's gender, then it cannot be identical to what it is a sense of.

[Consul]

We all have an innate sense of self.

What is a self?

Sorry, you misread, I didn't say "innate sense of a self".

Then you should have written: "We all have an innate sense of ourselves."

[Sy Borg]

So both gender and gender identity are defined by her as a "felt sense". Is it one and the same felt sense, such that gender = gender identity, or are there two different felt senses, such that gender ≠ gender identity? You won't find the answer in her book!

Anyway, gender cannot be the same as gender identity. For if gender identity is the (inner) sense of one's gender, then it cannot be identical to what it is a sense of.

I reckon it's just human variation. Some males are going to have the most feminine mentality and some females are going to have the most masculine mentality. Likewise, some males are hyper masculine and some females are hyper feminine. I expect that when an incongruent mentality meets relative physical androgyny, that's when dysphoria can happen.

All manner of diversity is possible, certainly more than the current DEI drones in today's academia, with their strict identity categories that ignore the "messiness" of the human psyche.

[Samana Johann]

We all have an innate sense of self.

What is a self?

Sorry, you misread, I didn't say "innate sense of a self".

Then you should have written: "We all have an innate sense of ourselves."

So good householders sense of self yesterday was the same? When he was 15 years old, 2 years old? What sense of self will he have now, after reading? Things, phenomenas, have cause, nothing innate at all, and if wishing to declare phenomena innate to common beings: craving for sensuality, craving for becoming/being, both rooted it not knowing, not understanding, delusion.

[Belinda]

What is a self?

Sorry, you misread, I didn't say "innate sense of a self".

Then you should have written: "We all have an innate sense of ourselves."

So good householders sense of self yesterday was the same? When he was 15 years old, 2 years old? What sense of self will he have now, after reading? Things, phenomenas, have cause, nothing innate at all, and if wishing to declare phenomena innate to common beings: craving for sensuality, craving for becoming/being, both rooted it not knowing, not understanding, delusion.

Your sense of self is not your preferred description of a set of attributes such as your name, appearance, where you live, what you know, and so forth. No, your sense of self is your feeling that you are separate from your mother , your family, and your chums. The small child around two years old often surprises the mother by telling the mother "No!" The child recently discovered she is not her mother but her self.

[Sculptor1]

Does anyone here think an entire woman who falls in love with another woman would go to all the trouble of turning herself into an entire man, so she can make love to her? I don't !

I think it much more probable she would change her gender identity to suit the other woman who is the object of her love or lust.
It's comparatively easy to change gender identity as gender does not exist .

I do not think you are, or anyone else here , in a position to judge. What I think I can say is that for each transition there is likely to be a range of different reasons, but underlying it is a visceral dissatisfaction with their assigned gender.
Gender re-assignment is now 100 years old. And objections to it first came from Nazis. I see no reason why I could preach objection to anyone in this matter, and regard criticisms of it by others as much the same as a Nazi attitude.

[Sculptor1]

I agree, Fried Egg. As I mentioned above, I now question my own inclination towards the innate model. We just do not know enough and, therefore, extreme caution should be used with transitioning, especially where surgery is being considered.

Whether or not gender is innate or cultural, a better society would not gender anybody. I call for gender to be as politically incorrect as race.

Agreed.
Sadly I think society is going in exactly the opposite direction.
And the one crowing the most are the ones claiming "freedumb" the most.

[Pattern-chaser]

We all have an innate sense of self.

...

Then you should have written: "We all have an innate sense of ourselves."

He did. He just phrased it idiomatically. The accepted meaning of LuckyR's words is exactly what you just wrote.

[Samana Johann]

Sorry, you misread, I didn't say "innate sense of a self".

Then you should have written: "We all have an innate sense of ourselves."

So good householders sense of self yesterday was the same? When he was 15 years old, 2 years old? What sense of self will he have now, after reading? Things, phenomenas, have cause, nothing innate at all, and if wishing to declare phenomena innate to common beings: craving for sensuality, craving for becoming/being, both rooted it not knowing, not understanding, delusion.

Your sense of self is not your preferred description of a set of attributes such as your name, appearance, where you live, what you know, and so forth. No, your sense of self is your feeling that you are separate from your mother , your family, and your chums. The small child around two years old often surprises the mother by telling the mother "No!" The child recently discovered she is not her mother but her self.

And how does good householder sense of self appears now? What's now object of identification?

[Samana Johann]

I agree, Fried Egg. As I mentioned above, I now question my own inclination towards the innate model. We just do not know enough and, therefore, extreme caution should be used with transitioning, especially where surgery is being considered.

Whether or not gender is innate or cultural, a better society would not gender anybody. I call for gender to be as politically incorrect as race.

Agreed.
Sadly I think society is going in exactly the opposite direction.
And the one crowing the most are the ones claiming "freedumb" the most.

Rich, happy and fortune people seldom claim for lowest equal...

[Samana Johann]

Whether a policeman actually does the opposite of his job or not, his nevertheless still called policeman. Called after his habitual deeds he would be a thief. How would one call common modern woman, or man today?

Gender is a habitual issue, has it's case, and of course mind is faster then body, yet not something seperate.

[Lagayascienza]

Ah, prick up your rears, good householders! Dr Jonathan Osterman, aka Material Girl, aka Samana Johan..., our very own oracle, has yet again, in his infinite patience, wisdom and compassion for the masses, condescended to enlighten us on the issue at hand. Mark his/her every word. Verily, we are the blessed of all the worlds weary online forum denizens.

[Sculptor1]

I agree, Fried Egg. As I mentioned above, I now question my own inclination towards the innate model. We just do not know enough and, therefore, extreme caution should be used with transitioning, especially where surgery is being considered.

Whether or not gender is innate or cultural, a better society would not gender anybody. I call for gender to be as politically incorrect as race.

Agreed.
Sadly I think society is going in exactly the opposite direction.
And the one crowing the most are the ones claiming "freedumb" the most.

Rich, happy and fortune people seldom claim for lowest equal...

Sorry? That does not parse well.

[Sculptor1]

Whether a policeman actually does the opposite of his job or not, his nevertheless still called policeman. Called after his habitual deeds he would be a thief. How would one call common modern woman, or man today?

Gender is a habitual issue, has it's case, and of course mind is faster then body, yet not something seperate.

Is English not your first langauge?