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Re: Destruction of information
Posted: February 10th, 2022, 12:33 am
by Atla
Tegularius wrote: ↑February 9th, 2022, 11:45 pm
Atla wrote: ↑February 9th, 2022, 10:50 am
Tegularius wrote: ↑February 8th, 2022, 10:46 pm
Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 6th, 2022, 9:16 pm
My argument was that, even if all the physical aspect6s of you were reconstituted, this would surely not include all of your hard won accumulated knowledge. If you fell into a black hole, I can't see how the quantum states in your brain would be replicable.
Thus, it seems that some information would be destroyed, and I don't know how this works with physics's claim that information cannot be destroyed.
I can't either, since I can't see memories or memory states as information. It depends on what "information" specifically pertains to in the physics domain. As I think of it, the kind of information which is imprinted on any one entity is not the kind amenable to recreation. There is no dynamic to a memory which may force it to reappear once it's shredded. Shakespeare's plays for example, though created by a person as a product of nature, are not themselves the creations of nature except indirectly and specific to a single individual. That doesn't preclude the ability of his brain, if reconstructed in a BH, to possess the same talent without any knowledge of prior plays. It's the same as being reborn, abilities intact, but without any knowledge of accomplishment before that hypothetical replication.
There's no mistery there, physicists think that all our memories, knowledge etc., no matter how "dynamic" they are, are made of physical stuff.
You couldn't be more wrong, the information recorded on a ram module is a part of the ram module, physical stuff.
There's a big difference between physical stuff and that which is recorded by physical stuff. A ram module is not the same as the information recorded on it.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: February 10th, 2022, 12:36 am
by Atla
Tegularius wrote: ↑February 9th, 2022, 11:45 pm
Atla wrote: ↑February 9th, 2022, 10:50 am
Tegularius wrote: ↑February 8th, 2022, 10:46 pm
Sy Borg wrote: ↑February 6th, 2022, 9:16 pm
My argument was that, even if all the physical aspect6s of you were reconstituted, this would surely not include all of your hard won accumulated knowledge. If you fell into a black hole, I can't see how the quantum states in your brain would be replicable.
Thus, it seems that some information would be destroyed, and I don't know how this works with physics's claim that information cannot be destroyed.
I can't either, since I can't see memories or memory states as information. It depends on what "information" specifically pertains to in the physics domain. As I think of it, the kind of information which is imprinted on any one entity is not the kind amenable to recreation. There is no dynamic to a memory which may force it to reappear once it's shredded. Shakespeare's plays for example, though created by a person as a product of nature, are not themselves the creations of nature except indirectly and specific to a single individual. That doesn't preclude the ability of his brain, if reconstructed in a BH, to possess the same talent without any knowledge of prior plays. It's the same as being reborn, abilities intact, but without any knowledge of accomplishment before that hypothetical replication.
There's no mistery there, physicists think that all our memories, knowledge etc., no matter how "dynamic" they are, are made of physical stuff.
There's a big difference between physical stuff and that which is recorded by physical stuff. A ram module is not the same as the information recorded on it.
You couldn't be more wrong, the information recorded on a ram module is a part of the ram module, physical stuff.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: February 10th, 2022, 1:13 am
by Tegularius
Atla wrote: ↑February 10th, 2022, 12:36 am
Tegularius wrote: ↑February 9th, 2022, 11:45 pm
Atla wrote: ↑February 9th, 2022, 10:50 am
Tegularius wrote: ↑February 8th, 2022, 10:46 pm
I can't either, since I can't see memories or memory states as information. It depends on what "information" specifically pertains to in the physics domain. As I think of it, the kind of information which is imprinted on any one entity is not the kind amenable to recreation. There is no dynamic to a memory which may force it to reappear once it's shredded. Shakespeare's plays for example, though created by a person as a product of nature, are not themselves the creations of nature except indirectly and specific to a single individual. That doesn't preclude the ability of his brain, if reconstructed in a BH, to possess the same talent without any knowledge of prior plays. It's the same as being reborn, abilities intact, but without any knowledge of accomplishment before that hypothetical replication.
There's no mistery there, physicists think that all our memories, knowledge etc., no matter how "dynamic" they are, are made of physical stuff.
There's a big difference between physical stuff and that which is recorded by physical stuff. A ram module is not the same as the information recorded on it.
You couldn't be more wrong, the information recorded on a ram module is a part of the ram module, physical stuff.
In that case there would have to be no difference between information and the medium it's printed or recorded on.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: February 10th, 2022, 2:39 am
by Sy Borg
The medium is part of the informational content of a chip, but much of the information lies in the configuration.
In terms of information destruction, this is all just theoretical. In practice, information is constantly being destroyed, including in black holes. It's hard to imagine technology sophisticated enough to retrieve any more than a jumbled mess from any information falling into a black hole. In a practical sense, every time any life form dies, a great deal of information is lost - the learning of a lifetime.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: February 10th, 2022, 9:44 am
by Atla
Tegularius wrote: ↑February 10th, 2022, 1:13 am
In that case there would have to be no difference between information and the medium it's printed or recorded on.
Yes there's no difference. If we physically organize different mediums using the same pattern, then we can say that's the same information.
(Plus we also need devices or humans etc., and a universe with set laws in which everything is happening. In other words, we need an "environment", where this information can be used, otherwise it's just physical stuff arranged in a random way.)
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: February 10th, 2022, 11:07 am
by Atla
Atla wrote: ↑February 10th, 2022, 9:44 am
Tegularius wrote: ↑February 10th, 2022, 1:13 am
In that case there would have to be no difference between information and the medium it's printed or recorded on.
Yes there's no difference. If we physically organize different mediums using the same pattern, then we can say that's the same information.
(Plus we also need devices or humans etc., and a universe with set laws in which everything is happening. In other words, we need an "environment", where this information can be used, otherwise it's just physical stuff arranged in a random way.)
This is talk about the dimensionless Shannon information by the way, which is not the physical information that the black hole information paradox is concerned with.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: March 30th, 2022, 2:31 pm
by Raymond
Once upon a time all solid massive in formations will be annihilated and all left will be photons. The carry a memory of the last massive state the universe was in. That's all that remains. Fleeting, light memories to a real solid existence once present. Accelerating into the oblivion of nothingness, or the nothingness of oblivion. A sign for a fresh start.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: March 30th, 2022, 8:00 pm
by Sy Borg
Raymond wrote: ↑March 30th, 2022, 2:31 pm
Once upon a time all solid massive in formations will be annihilated and all left will be photons. The carry a memory of the last massive state the universe was in. That's all that remains. Fleeting, light memories to a real solid existence once present. Accelerating into the oblivion of nothingness, or the nothingness of oblivion. A sign for a fresh start.
As far as I know, physicists would say that the universe's information has not been destroyed, just dissipated. Yet dissipation itself logically destroys information. If Raymond is dissipated, the information of his atoms remains, sure, but the organisation of them that makes Raymond a living, functioning being, is destroyed. All traceable causal links would be destroyed due to quantum interference.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: March 31st, 2022, 6:24 am
by Raymond
Sy Borg wrote: ↑March 30th, 2022, 8:00 pm
Raymond wrote: ↑March 30th, 2022, 2:31 pm
Once upon a time all solid massive in formations will be annihilated and all left will be photons. The carry a memory of the last massive state the universe was in. That's all that remains. Fleeting, light memories to a real solid existence once present. Accelerating into the oblivion of nothingness, or the nothingness of oblivion. A sign for a fresh start.
As far as I know, physicists would say that the universe's information has not been destroyed, just dissipated. Yet dissipation itself logically destroys information. If Raymond is dissipated, the information of his atoms remains, sure, but the organisation of them that makes Raymond a living, functioning being, is destroyed. All traceable causal links would be destroyed due to quantum interference.
If I fall into a black hole, all the material particles Im made of will be annihilated by the merging with particles in the hole. I got entangled with virtual photons, electrons, quarks, on the horizon. These turn into real photons (assuming the hole is uncharged) carrying away the information of my last state. So what's left of Raymond? A diverging fleeing and fleeting sphere of photons, accelerating into oblivion. And this will happen eventually with the whole massivity of the universe... All will eventually turn photonic, with no real mass left. Only diverging lost memories of a final massive state. And then, at the singularity source the sign is given: start again! And new real particles will be inflated into being! You and me will meet again! On $%#$@##%^^^^ forum...
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: March 31st, 2022, 7:29 pm
by Sy Borg
Yeah, it's hard to know why physicists stick to this theoretical line when the physical reality is so obviously otherwise. There appears to be a reluctance to let go of relativity, despite the fact that quantum mechanics has revealed its limitations for decades. Einstein is too respected, and his towering achievements blind many science people from the established fact that relativity does not entirely describe reality. Even today, educators talk about the singularity at the centre of black holes, when actual singularities obviously cannot exist.
I find the destruction of information to be a sad aspect of reality, although some might see it as merciful. With every death there's a ton of lost life experience and ideas that disappear from reality. At least in known dimensions ... :)
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: April 1st, 2022, 2:47 am
by Raymond
There is no ton of information lost if you die. At least, that's not how I see it. It's a quite pessimistic view. If you have lived it through what's lost? You wanna nail it all down in books or art? It's done. But you can't nail down a life.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: April 1st, 2022, 4:51 am
by Sy Borg
Raymond wrote: ↑April 1st, 2022, 2:47 am
There is no ton of information lost if you die. At least, that's not how I see it. It's a quite pessimistic view. If you have lived it through what's lost? You wanna nail it all down in books or art? It's done. But you can't nail down a life.
I am thinking of the multitude of little problems that we solve in our lives - all gone. Others can't benefit because transfer of physical skills and thoughts is imprecise. So everyone else has to go through the whole torrid affair again - the early lessons, the teens and school, adapting to the workplace, lessons in relationships. People are furiously brain dumping nowadays, but it's chaotic. It will take AI to put the pieces of the puzzle together.
Our family dog will die this year at some stage, she's already half a year past her prognosis. She is incredibly sweet, a mutt who is not quite like any other, with a distinct personality and charms. It breaks my heart that all this loveliness will be lost forever, but one has to accept that her qualities won't be so much lost, but spread out in future populations - one dog will have
this aspect, another might have
that aspect, and so on.
The total package, though, will be gone from the universe, no matter what physicists claim. That is, unless there's the extra dimensional notions of spiritualists are correct (which would of even more concern to physicists). It's odd that information can be lost in a closed system like the universe, but the universe is an open system for most practical means and purposes, where information can be easily lost to quantum chaos.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: April 1st, 2022, 5:24 am
by Raymond
Yes. I can remember our dog dying here in the room. She laid ill in the corner. The vet, due to Covid, couldn't come. Maybe luckily so. True, she laid there really sick, breathing fast. All we could do was being with her. Helping her to still do her peeing. Streaking her back. At some point she raised her head. Askingly so it looked (not sure if this is the right English...). She made a weeping sound. We touched her breast and her heart stopped. Damned, I get tears in my eyes, thinking about it now. She was gone. No more. Gone. Finito. Bye bye beloved dog. Was her information gone? Sounds almost silly to ask! For sure her soul left us.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: April 1st, 2022, 5:41 am
by Raymond
Okay. Back again. "where information can be easily lost to quantum chaos." This presupposes that the quantum chaos is non-deterministic. If you consider your dog (or ours, for that matter), and consider her material part only (so not her soul or mind part) her brain and body just stop their activity. But the total state is retractable to the functioning state in principle. The information isn't gone. We can't possibly know it anymore though.
Re: Destruction of information
Posted: April 1st, 2022, 7:23 am
by Sy Borg
Raymond wrote: ↑April 1st, 2022, 5:41 amWe can't possibly know it anymore though.
Yep, and in the later universe, any atoms that don't fall into black holes will decay to photons over a very long time and the information will be even theoretically irretrievable.