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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 3:55 am
by Thinking critical
Felix wrote: June 9th, 2018, 3:38 am
Thinking critical: As an atheist myself my position is this - "I see no reason to even contemplate the possibility that gods exist". There is no arrogance in being confident in ones own opinion of a premise such as "gods exist" when it is presented in the absence of any objective evidence.
What sort of "objective evidence" would you require to verify the existence of a Supreme Being?
How could I possibly know what qualifies as objective evidence for something before I've seen it? All explinations of god I have ever encountered come with an ad hoc clause which conveniently places them beyond the reach of ojective evidence.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 5:41 am
by Sy Borg
Belindi wrote: June 8th, 2018, 5:08 am Greta wrote:
Belinda, I don't think we can assume that nature - Spinoza's god - is lacking in mentality.
Spinoza's god doesn't lack mentality. Mentality is a state ("mode")of nature. A blade of grass is a state of nature. A cup of coffee is a state of nature. The perception of green is a state of nature as is blindness , or stupidity, things of nature. President Trump is a state of nature. Historical Jesus and the Paulian concept of a supernatural saviour are things of nature.The stories we tell ourselves are states of nature. Sorry! I am partial to lists.
Hahaha - so am I! It's the pleasure of seeing a principle at play in multiple areas.

I guess I am always conscious of the fact that, if our internal cells and bacteria were as sentient as humans then they would perceive us - the total human - as mechanical, with the dynamic changes effected by consciousness as the movements of large interrelated objects along with some confusing forces.
Belindi wrote:Greta, your own 'peak' experience I do believe is not an experience of relative or even rational truth, but is an experience from the perspective of eternity. Eternity is also within nature/god but is a different perspective from the normal feet of clay experience. It's probably true to say that you were temporarily blessed with abnormal brain chemistry at that time which allowed you to lose your feet of clay as long as the peak experience/abnormal chemistry lasted. This state is not at all invalidated by the coincidence of subjective state and objective brain chemistry. This last paragraph of mine is not all from Spinoza, and I have no idea whether or not Spinoza, despite his interest in eternity, was interested in vedanta as such. However Spinoza did validate the perspective from the eternal.
That's an interesting way of seeing it. I like it, even if I don't understand what you mean by "perspective of eternity". But yes, definitely the sense of being freed from the feet of clay.

I think the "feet of clay" relates to the useful abstractions with which we reduce reality so as to operate. For whatever reason, I was feeling especially good at the time and perhaps felt secure enough to drop what are effectively functional distractions from actual reality. It's a state where the senses are alive, with even breath and heartbeat prominent, the pressure on the mattress, the temperature of the air on one's face and so forth. It's the visceral business of living, right in the present moment with reduced filters of the usual things we take for granted.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 5:43 am
by Eduk
Fact: a belief based on no prior plausibility, with no mechanism, making no predictions, requiring no empirical evidence. Fact.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 5:45 am
by Eduk
Darn. Meant to post in a different thread, phone fail.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 12:34 pm
by Felix
All explainations of god I have ever encountered come with an ad hoc clause which conveniently places them beyond the reach of objective evidence.
You don't understand. Faith in a Supreme Being or Beingness (more accurately), when it's genuine, is based primarily on subjective experience rather than on objective evidence, so to insist on seeing objective evidence for it is to miss the point entirely. It is like someone who has never known love insisting that it does not exist because he can see no objective evidence for it.

Eduk's original question is trivial for the same reason.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 1:36 pm
by Eduk
There is objective evidence for love.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 1:37 pm
by Eduk
Oh wait. Please ignore that last comment Felix. Sorry.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 3:10 pm
by Thinking critical
Felix wrote: June 9th, 2018, 12:34 pm
All explainations of god I have ever encountered come with an ad hoc clause which conveniently places them beyond the reach of objective evidence.
You don't understand. Faith in a Supreme Being or Beingness (more accurately), when it's genuine, is based primarily on subjective experience rather than on objective evidence, so to insist on seeing objective evidence for it is to miss the point entirely. It is like someone who has never known love insisting that it does not exist because he can see no objective evidence for it.

Eduk's original question is trivial for the same reason.
And there goes that ad hoc clause again. If gods are experienced subjectively then gods are nothing more than a concept or feeling, an extension of ones own ideology of what god might be. There is one god I accept, the ontological one - the manifestation of ideological constructs, the personal god which theists assign qualities to, the god which can't exist independently from cognition. Ontological gods have no influence on physical things which do not possess cognitive ability, in other words the only things gods influence is human behaviour, because belief influences behaviour.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 3:14 pm
by Consul
Thinking critical wrote: June 8th, 2018, 5:59 pmSo yes, neither atheists or agnostics share the same belief in gods as a theist, however agnostics go on to say they have a degree of uncertainty or they are unsure, and are open to the possibility that gods may exist.
As an atheist myself my position is this - "I see no reason to even contemplate the possibility that gods exist".
The term "agnostic" is used by many to refer to those who neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence of God or gods. This usage is contrary to its etymological meaning (relating to knowledge rather than belief), but its current meaning may certainly deviate from its etymological meaning.

"What I am referring to as the etymological fallacy is the assumption that the original form or meaning of a word is, necessarily and by virtue of that very fact, its correct form or meaning. This assumption is widely held. How often do we meet the argument that because such and such a word comes from Greek, Latin, Arabic, or whatever language it might be in the particular instance, the correct meaning of the word must be what it was in the language of origin! The argument is fallacious, because the tacit assumption of an originally true or appropriate correspondence between form and meaning, upon which the argument rests, cannot be substantiated."

(Lyons, John. Language and Linguistics: An Introduction. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1981. p. 55)

Unfortunately, "agnostic(ism)" is currently used both etymologically and non-etymologically, which circumstance has created a good deal of confusion and misunderstanding. One possible solution is to disambiguate the term through introducing another one such as "apistic(ism)", whose etymological meaning relates to belief rather than knowledge.

"Let the adherents of this phase of irreligion call themselves, not agnostics, signifying their lack of knowledge, but apistics, signifying their lack of belief; and let them call their system, not agnosticism, but apisticism."

(Rishell, Charles Wesley. The Foundations of the Christian Faith. New York: Eaton & Mains, 1899. p. 62)

Another possibility is to disambiguate the term by adding the adjectives "doxastic" ("belief-related") and "epistemic" ("knowledge-related"). Then we can use the respectively non-ambiguous terms "doxastic agnosticism" (= "apisticism") and "epistemic agnosticism".

(Note that the latter is compatible both with positive atheism/antitheism and with theism, whereas the former is not, since "doxastically agnostic anti-/theist" is a contradiction in terms.)

Then we finally get the following trinary classification:

1. atheism/nontheism (defined as the absence of the belief in the existence of God or gods, or that theism is true)
1.1 purely negative atheism = apisticism (doxastic agnosticism) = neutral atheism (neutralism)
1.2 positive atheism/antitheism (defined as the belief in the non-existence of God or gods, or that theism is false)


As for 1.2, note that belief doesn't entail certainty! So you don't have to be certain that theism is false in order to be a positive atheist. Nor do you have to claim to know that theism is false in order to be a positive atheist, because positive atheism is compatible with epistemic agnosticism. Nor do you have to believe that theism is necessarily false, i.e. that God is/gods are necessarily nonexistent. This view can be called superpositive atheism: Theism isn't only false in the actual world but in all possible worlds.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 5:49 pm
by ThomasHobbes
Consul wrote: June 8th, 2018, 11:32 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote: June 7th, 2018, 5:19 pmAll belief is childish and counter-intellectual. Believe is the height of arrogance.
So that's what you believe…
No. It is demonstrable.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 10th, 2018, 3:56 am
by Felix
Thinking critical: If gods are experienced subjectively then gods are nothing more than a concept or feeling, an extension of ones own ideology of what god might be.
I see, so you only trust subjective experience that can be objectively verified by others, preferably a scientific authority? Perhaps other people are not as insecure about their perceptual abilities as you appear to be.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 10th, 2018, 4:51 am
by Thinking critical
Felix wrote: June 10th, 2018, 3:56 am
Thinking critical: If gods are experienced subjectively then gods are nothing more than a concept or feeling, an extension of ones own ideology of what god might be.
I see, so you only trust subjective experience that can be objectively verified by others, preferably a scientific authority? Perhaps other people are not as insecure about their perceptual abilities as you appear to be.
Nope, I simply understand that the subjective experience is just that, how I experience things. Our subjective experiences are influenced by our own biases and predispositions, our senses can fool the mind into seeing, experiencing and believing things which aren't necessarily as they appear to be.
Yes there are many people who have way to much faith their perceptual abilities who believe all sorts of irrational things like, UFOs, Bigfoot, ghosts and flat earth to name a few.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 10th, 2018, 9:45 am
by Consul
ThomasHobbes wrote: June 9th, 2018, 5:49 pm
Consul wrote: June 8th, 2018, 11:32 pmSo that's what you believe…
No. It is demonstrable.
So you believe that "all belief is childish and counter-intellectual," and that "belief is the height of arrogance."

You might reply "I don't believe that, I know it", but belief doesn't exclude knowledge and it isn't the same as epistemically unjustified belief, as mere or blind faith.

"What I know, I believe."

(Ludwig Wittgenstein, On Certainty, §177)

"One always forgets the expression 'I believed I knew it'."

(Ludwig Wittgenstein, On Certainty, §12)

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 10th, 2018, 9:54 am
by -1-
Belief is not knowledge. Knowledge renders belief redundant.

Wittgenstein ought to have realized that.

Re: Questions to an agnostic

Posted: June 10th, 2018, 9:57 am
by -1-
Knowledge justifies belief, but it still renders it redundant. Knowledge does not exclude belief, but it renders it redundant.