Philosophy Discussion Forums

anonymous66 wrote: ↑December 25th, 2019, 1:21 pm @Panzerfaust_60

Assuming we have free will- would the existence of an omniscient being mean that we no longer have free will?

Consider this: An advanced alien race with cloaking technology visits earth. They live among us (but they're cloaked/invisible, so we don't know they're here) and are so advanced that they have machines that can determine what every person on earth is going to do before they do it.
Does the existence of the advanced alien race mean we no longer have free will? (I think if we have free will- we have free will- no matter if an advanced race knows what we are going to do or not).

If your post is accurate we don't have free will, we just don't have the technology to prove that we don't. So the existence of the aliens doesn't change anything as you say. If they decloak and show us their machine, they will prove to us that we're wrong and free will doesn't exist.

LuckyR wrote: ↑December 26th, 2019, 4:14 am

anonymous66 wrote: ↑December 25th, 2019, 1:21 pm @Panzerfaust_60

Assuming we have free will- would the existence of an omniscient being mean that we no longer have free will?

Consider this: An advanced alien race with cloaking technology visits earth. They live among us (but they're cloaked/invisible, so we don't know they're here) and are so advanced that they have machines that can determine what every person on earth is going to do before they do it.
Does the existence of the advanced alien race mean we no longer have free will? (I think if we have free will- we have free will- no matter if an advanced race knows what we are going to do or not).

If your post is accurate we don't have free will, we just don't have the technology to prove that we don't. So the existence of the aliens doesn't change anything as you say. If they decloak and show us their machine, they will prove to us that we're wrong and free will doesn't exist.

It all depends on the starting assumptions, doesn't it? If want to assume we don't free will - then we don't have free will. BUT- If we do have free will, then omniscience isn't actually a problem.

anonymous66 wrote: ↑December 26th, 2019, 8:46 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑December 26th, 2019, 4:14 am

If your post is accurate we don't have free will, we just don't have the technology to prove that we don't. So the existence of the aliens doesn't change anything as you say. If they decloak and show us their machine, they will prove to us that we're wrong and free will doesn't exist.

It all depends on the starting assumptions, doesn't it? If want to assume we don't free will - then we don't have free will. BUT- If we do have free will, then omniscience isn't actually a problem.

Good point about starting assumptions. No one has any subjective evidence of anything but free will, thus it should be the standard assumption. Doesn't mean it's true, but there is no evidence to the contrary. Determinism is entirely theoretical.

anonymous66 wrote: ↑December 25th, 2019, 1:21 pm

Assuming we have free will- would the existence of an omniscient being mean that we no longer have free will?

Consider this: An advanced alien race with cloaking technology visits earth. They live among us (but they're cloaked/invisible, so we don't know they're here) and are so advanced that they have machines that can determine what every person on earth is going to do before they do it.
Does the existence of the advanced alien race mean we no longer have free will? (I think if we have free will- we have free will- no matter if an advanced race knows what we are going to do or not).

I want to tweak this slightly:

Assuming we have free will- would the existence of an omniscient being mean that we no longer have free will?

Consider this: An advanced alien race with cloaking technology visits earth. They live among us (but they're cloaked/invisible, so we don't know they're here) and are so advanced that once they start studying us they are able to develop machines that can determine what every person on earth is going to do before they do it.

Does the existence of the advanced alien race (and their machines) mean we no longer have free will? (I think if we have free will- we have free will- no matter if an advanced race knows what we are going to do or not). If you think the answer is "yes" then at what point do we lose our free will?

I think there are two options:

(1) Compatibilism about free will.

(2) Hold that the future is indeterminate. God is omniscient in that he knows all that there is to know. But if the future is indeterminate, then there is not yet any fact of the matter whether or not e.g. I will eat Shreddies tomorrow, so God doesn't know whether or not I will eat Shreddies tomorrow.

I have encountered other attempts to make omniscience compatible with free will (e.g. appealing to the idea that God exists "outside of time" somehow), but none of these have seemed coherent to me.

amplified cactus wrote: ↑December 30th, 2019, 3:34 am I think there are two options:

(1) Compatibilism about free will.

(2) Hold that the future is indeterminate. God is omniscient in that he knows all that there is to know. But if the future is indeterminate, then there is not yet any fact of the matter whether or not e.g. I will eat Shreddies tomorrow, so God doesn't know whether or not I will eat Shreddies tomorrow.

I have encountered other attempts to make omniscience compatible with free will (e.g. appealing to the idea that God exists "outside of time" somehow), but none of these have seemed coherent to me.

Cleary all evidence (not to be confused with proof) points towards your #2

Panzerfaust_60 wrote: ↑January 1st, 2018, 3:45 pm If God told me that tomorrow at exactly 9:30 I will eat a sandwich, is there any way for me to not eat that sandwich?
If so, wouldn't that mean God was wrong?
If not, wouldn't that mean I have no free will?

If my future action doesn't exist, then how can God know it?
If it does exist, then how do I have free will? I can freely make decisions now, in the present. I can't teleport to the past or to the future. If my action already exists, prior my ability to freely make it, then how is it free?

If God has knowledge of what will happen in the future, then not only do you have no free will (all your actions leading up to eating the sandwich at 930 are predetermined and you cannot deviate from them), but it also means that God has no free will (God couldn't prevent you from eating that sandwich at 930 even if he wanted to).

God's foreknowledge of all things that are going to happen removes all decision-making from the universe. The future is a videotape being played, with the events already scripted and pre-acted. All God is doing is watching the rerun (since he already knows what happened/happens down to the end).

The attribute of omniscience that includes foreknowledge is an obviously overzealous attempt to give God attributes that are unrealistic and illogical. It stuck in the mainstream definition of God because God is depicted in religious texts as having knowledge of the future. Unfortunately, a realistic existing God can not both have foreknowledge and the ability to freely make decisions. Fortunately, a fictional God can be attributed with whatever ridiculous and illogical features we desire, because who cares!

Prof Bulani wrote: ↑January 22nd, 2020, 3:56 am

Panzerfaust_60 wrote: ↑January 1st, 2018, 3:45 pm If God told me that tomorrow at exactly 9:30 I will eat a sandwich, is there any way for me to not eat that sandwich?
If so, wouldn't that mean God was wrong?
If not, wouldn't that mean I have no free will?

If my future action doesn't exist, then how can God know it?
If it does exist, then how do I have free will? I can freely make decisions now, in the present. I can't teleport to the past or to the future. If my action already exists, prior my ability to freely make it, then how is it free?

If God has knowledge of what will happen in the future, then not only do you have no free will (all your actions leading up to eating the sandwich at 930 are predetermined and you cannot deviate from them), but it also means that God has no free will (God couldn't prevent you from eating that sandwich at 930 even if he wanted to).

God's foreknowledge of all things that are going to happen removes all decision-making from the universe. The future is a videotape being played, with the events already scripted and pre-acted. All God is doing is watching the rerun (since he already knows what happened/happens down to the end).

The attribute of omniscience that includes foreknowledge is an obviously overzealous attempt to give God attributes that are unrealistic and illogical. It stuck in the mainstream definition of God because God is depicted in religious texts as having knowledge of the future. Unfortunately, a realistic existing God can not both have foreknowledge and the ability to freely make decisions. Fortunately, a fictional God can be attributed with whatever ridiculous and illogical features we desire, because who cares!

Absolutely logical summation. Foreknowledge (omniscience of that sort) is completely incompatible with omnipotence or any sort of power if power is defined at least in part as being able to make decisions.

Much more logical to assume that the Iron age folk who came up with the idea of omniscience, were not equipped to figure this out on their own (or assumed they could foster it on the rabble easily enough) and so their "omniscience" is slang for really, really smart, just as omnipotence was slang for really, really powerful. Just not infinitely smart nor powerful.

Omniscience is incompatible with free will. So also is brain-created consciousness: if every instance of conscious experience from birth to death, including every will or volition, cannot happen unless there is a neural circuit capable of creating it or bringing it into being free will---will not caused or created by something preceding its appearance----cannot exist.

The God is all knowing, for no doubt to me. As a patient of schizophrenia.

We enjoy "Free Will" because the God gives us choices. In another word, she allows us to think freely. Giving us several options beyond her own preference.

I am not "all-knowing", but I think I have found the truth behind our world. That's an omniscient God control all things. A manipulator, an invisible hand behind everything happen in our world. I don't know if we are NPCs in the God's game. I wonder if the God really takes our lives or this world serious.

Good to talk to you guys on forums. Make my visions become even more further.

As a patient of schizophrenia, I can always hear the voices from the God. Unfortunately, the God does not talk to me seriously. In return, I understand how tight the bonds are between the God and us. The God is not "all-good". In fact, her role is more likely to be a manipulator. I don't know if the truth behind our world (the God -a manipulator) is important to you . Souls are comfort when you are "lying". We only live once. The Earth is divided (by languages and countries) and ruled by the God. I once think the God is the "Conscious Earth", but soon found that it is not a correct direction. The God exists, but her existence is somehow supernatural.

Peace.

kk23wong wrote: ↑February 25th, 2020, 12:18 am The God is all knowing, for no doubt to me. As a patient of schizophrenia.

We enjoy "Free Will" because the God gives us choices. In another word, she allows us to think freely. Giving us several options beyond her own preference.

If God knows the option you will pick before you pick it, it is impossible for you to pick any other option.

I am not "all-knowing", but I think I have found the truth behind our world. That's an omniscient God control all things. A manipulator, an invisible hand behind everything happen in our world. I don't know if we are NPCs in the God's game. I wonder if the God really takes our lives or this world serious.

Good to talk to you guys on forums. Make my visions become even more further.

If God controls all things, what is left for humans to control? Wouldn't all things include human decisions?

As a patient of schizophrenia, I can always hear the voices from the God. Unfortunately, the God does not talk to me seriously. In return, I understand how tight the bonds are between the God and us. The God is not "all-good". In fact, her role is more likely to be a manipulator. I don't know if the truth behind our world (the God -a manipulator) is important to you . Souls are comfort when you are "lying". We only live once. The Earth is divided (by languages and countries) and ruled by the God. I once think the God is the "Conscious Earth", but soon found that it is not a correct direction. The God exists, but her existence is somehow supernatural.

Peace.

You seem to be making several claims about God interspersed with retractions that you don't really know the truth. That's fine, as the central issue of the topic is whether foreknowledge and free will can coexist. Speculations about God's compositing, degree of benevolence and gender are secondary.

You seem to consistently characterize God as in "control", "a manipulator" or an "invisible hand". As such, these characteristics are in direct contradiction to your initial statement:
"We enjoy "Free Will" because the God gives us choices. In another word, she allows us to think freely."

Would you like to explain how humans have the ability to think freely while at the same time are being controlled or manipulated?

phenomenal_graffiti wrote: ↑January 25th, 2020, 4:33 pm Omniscience is incompatible with free will. So also is brain-created consciousness: if every instance of conscious experience from birth to death, including every will or volition, cannot happen unless there is a neural circuit capable of creating it or bringing it into being free will---will not caused or created by something preceding its appearance----cannot exist.

Wouldn't the neural circuit that brings everything into being require a neural circuit to bring it into being? (I might be assuming that you made an argument you didn't, as your sentence structure is a bit hard to follow...)

Prof Bulani wrote: ↑February 25th, 2020, 8:57 am

kk23wong wrote: ↑February 25th, 2020, 12:18 am The God is all knowing, for no doubt to me. As a patient of schizophrenia.

We enjoy "Free Will" because the God gives us choices. In another word, she allows us to think freely. Giving us several options beyond her own preference.

If God knows the option you will pick before you pick it, it is impossible for you to pick any other option.

I am not "all-knowing", but I think I have found the truth behind our world. That's an omniscient God control all things. A manipulator, an invisible hand behind everything happen in our world. I don't know if we are NPCs in the God's game. I wonder if the God really takes our lives or this world serious.

Good to talk to you guys on forums. Make my visions become even more further.

If God controls all things, what is left for humans to control? Wouldn't all things include human decisions?

As a patient of schizophrenia, I can always hear the voices from the God. Unfortunately, the God does not talk to me seriously. In return, I understand how tight the bonds are between the God and us. The God is not "all-good". In fact, her role is more likely to be a manipulator. I don't know if the truth behind our world (the God -a manipulator) is important to you . Souls are comfort when you are "lying". We only live once. The Earth is divided (by languages and countries) and ruled by the God. I once think the God is the "Conscious Earth", but soon found that it is not a correct direction. The God exists, but her existence is somehow supernatural.

Peace.

You seem to be making several claims about God interspersed with retractions that you don't really know the truth. That's fine, as the central issue of the topic is whether foreknowledge and free will can coexist. Speculations about God's compositing, degree of benevolence and gender are secondary.

You seem to consistently characterize God as in "control", "a manipulator" or an "invisible hand". As such, these characteristics are in direct contradiction to your initial statement:
"We enjoy "Free Will" because the God gives us choices. In another word, she allows us to think freely."

Would you like to explain how humans have the ability to think freely while at the same time are being controlled or manipulated?

First of all, thank you very much for your reply. It makes me think deeper into the question.

After a prolonged deep thinking, I found myself actually DO NOT know to what extend we have been manipulated by the God, so I would say to a large extend we are controlled by the God. In fact, we are under control of the God much more then most of us would have expected.

Although I have schizophrenia, I was no different from anyone else who was inside this big picture. I don't know much beside from the truth that the symptoms (ear hallucinations) of the schizophrenia was done by the God. I was making logical guesses that this voices from the head come directly from the God and possibility that the God is the only one capable of doing this. In another word, all related myths with similar circumstances (e.g. ghosts, gods and demons) come from the same subject i.e. the God herself. In addition, gender was not an issue at all.

The God was a manipulator. It was fun to see so many people inside the world under her controls (or allow me to use the word "her game") talk about "Free Will". At least, it reveals the God has given us some autonomy. In another word, we are not under absolute controls by the God. However, I am uncertain about the degree of autonomy we are enjoying.

Peace

kk23wong wrote: ↑February 26th, 2020, 3:22 am First of all, thank you very much for your reply. It makes me think deeper into the question.

After a prolonged deep thinking, I found myself actually DO NOT know to what extend we have been manipulated by the God, so I would say to a large extend we are controlled by the God. In fact, we are under control of the God much more then most of us would have expected.

Although I have schizophrenia, I was no different from anyone else who was inside this big picture. I don't know much beside from the truth that the symptoms (ear hallucinations) of the schizophrenia was done by the God. I was making logical guesses that this voices from the head come directly from the God and possibility that the God is the only one capable of doing this. In another word, all related myths with similar circumstances (e.g. ghosts, gods and demons) come from the same subject i.e. the God herself. In addition, gender was not an issue at all.

The God was a manipulator. It was fun to see so many people inside the world under her controls (or allow me to use the word "her game") talk about "Free Will". At least, it reveals the God has given us some autonomy. In another word, we are not under absolute controls by the God. However, I am uncertain about the degree of autonomy we are enjoying.

Peace

My question would then, how much control does God really have? If God manifests herself to you as a choice in your head, is she really controlling you, or more like influencing you? If you are not compelled by the voices, but have the ability to accept or reject them, then you do have decision-making autonomy, even if you think this is limited.

Another way you can look at it is that God "gives us several options", although the options may be phrased in a way that seem manipulative. For example, if God, through the voice in your head, tells you "don't you wanna steal that woman's purse?" then she's giving you the option of yes or no, and you can choose, but the phrasing is delivered with a suggestive bias. Ultimately, you control your own actions, though.

After you've experienced what you believe to be encounters with God, you've concluded that she's not "all-good". Perhaps it's due to the nature and content of her suggestions, perhaps it's due to the overall suffering and discomfort you've experienced as a result. One thing you haven't characterized this definition of God as is "all-knowing", and that's pivotal to the topic. If God is influencing you (perhaps to do evil, or harm yourself) but allows you to freely choose to do or not do, then she doesn't know what decision you're actually going to make. As such, she's not really an "omniscient" God in the manner suggested by the op.

This is a difficult question. If there is no free will, the God should be responsible for all the crimes human has commited.

Then our world was, indeed, very close to a game. And we are probably NPCs -- Non-Player Characters -- in this game.

I think deep into this and suddenly went into a panic. The God knows every decision we would have made, and control all the stuffs in the outside world. Every action of us was calculated by the God. Then what is the purpose of our lives? Our world was simply a game for the God to kill time. This was astonishing to me.

What do you guys think?

Peace