Philosophy Discussion Forums

Jill Yaz wrote:What is remarkable about this case is that the [scientific community believes that the] brain stem doesn’t control our thinking or consciousness, so the fact that he can do things like giggle and smile and say words like ‘Mummy’ as a baby is fascinating. There is no known explanation for it. I’ve never seen anything like this brain scan in 20 years. It is remarkable that he has managed to survive and say ‘Mummy’ for the first time – it shows how little we really understand about how the human body works. And the body can surprise us and do remarkable things.

arjand wrote: ↑May 28th, 2021, 8:59 pm Baby born without a brain amazes doctors by celebrating his second birthday - and says 'mummy' for the first time
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... -time.html

With his lack of a brain, he wouldn’t be expected to giggle when someone is near, play with others, open presents, or watch TV, and he especially should not be able to talk. Even after all of these years of beating the odds and surviving without a brain he should have no more mental function than a newborn, this is an aspect of his case that continues to confound the medical community. One doctor, a Jill Yaz, from the Association for Spina Bifidia and Hydrocephalus, has said of Aaron Murray’s miraculous condition:

Jill Yaz wrote:What is remarkable about this case is that the [scientific community believes that the] brain stem doesn’t control our thinking or consciousness, so the fact that he can do things like giggle and smile and say words like ‘Mummy’ as a baby is fascinating. There is no known explanation for it. I’ve never seen anything like this brain scan in 20 years. It is remarkable that he has managed to survive and say ‘Mummy’ for the first time – it shows how little we really understand about how the human body works. And the body can surprise us and do remarkable things.

Consul wrote: ↑May 28th, 2021, 9:19 pm

arjand wrote: ↑May 28th, 2021, 8:59 pm Baby born without a brain amazes doctors by celebrating his second birthday - and says 'mummy' for the first time
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... -time.html

With his lack of a brain, he wouldn’t be expected to giggle when someone is near, play with others, open presents, or watch TV, and he especially should not be able to talk. Even after all of these years of beating the odds and surviving without a brain he should have no more mental function than a newborn, this is an aspect of his case that continues to confound the medical community. One doctor, a Jill Yaz, from the Association for Spina Bifidia and Hydrocephalus, has said of Aaron Murray’s miraculous condition:

Jill Yaz wrote:What is remarkable about this case is that the [scientific community believes that the] brain stem doesn’t control our thinking or consciousness, so the fact that he can do things like giggle and smile and say words like ‘Mummy’ as a baby is fascinating. There is no known explanation for it. I’ve never seen anything like this brain scan in 20 years. It is remarkable that he has managed to survive and say ‘Mummy’ for the first time – it shows how little we really understand about how the human body works. And the body can surprise us and do remarkable things.

That baby isn't brainless, because the brain stem is part of the brain, and brainlessness requires a complete absence of brain tissue. Moreover, "the fact that he can do things like giggle and smile and say words like ‘Mummy’" doesn't prove that he is a subject of phenomenal consciousness. Actually, I doubt that his extremely underdeveloped brain can realize phenomenally conscious states.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 28th, 2021, 9:29 pmI would say that recognising one's mother and associating a word to symbolise the mother looks like consciousness to me. The child is not looking at Mummy and referring to her when he is asleep. Even parroting the word without understanding its association takes some level of cognition.
To me, this looks like a case of brain elasticity, where the functions of missing brain parts are taken over by existing brain parts.

Consul wrote: ↑May 28th, 2021, 9:19 pm That baby isn't brainless, because the brain stem is part of the brain, and brainlessness requires a complete absence of brain tissue. Moreover, "the fact that he can do things like giggle and smile and say words like ‘Mummy’" doesn't prove that he is a subject of phenomenal consciousness. Actually, I doubt that his extremely underdeveloped brain can realize phenomenally conscious states.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 28th, 2021, 9:29 pmTo me, this looks like a case of brain elasticity, where the functions of missing brain parts are taken over by existing brain parts.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 29th, 2021, 7:28 pm Yes, plasticity, thanks. Never mind me. Just another old fart losing her marbles.

arjand wrote: ↑May 29th, 2021, 8:42 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 29th, 2021, 7:28 pm Yes, plasticity, thanks. Never mind me. Just another old fart losing her marbles.

Nice new avatar btw! Does it include a picture of you and an animal?

Consul wrote: ↑May 28th, 2021, 9:54 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 28th, 2021, 9:29 pm

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 28th, 2021, 9:29 pmI would say that recognising one's mother and associating a word to symbolise the mother looks like consciousness to me. The child is not looking at Mummy and referring to her when he is asleep. Even parroting the word without understanding its association takes some level of cognition.
To me, this looks like a case of brain elasticity, where the functions of missing brain parts are taken over by existing brain parts.

As you know, the word "consciousness" is ambiguous, there being a distinction between phenomenal consciousness and perceptual (or cognitive) consciousness. The latter doesn't entail the former; so even if that baby has some form of perceptual (cognitive) consciousness, it doesn't follow that it also has some form of phenomenal consciousness.

"[S]ophisticated, flexible, sensorimotor behavior in humans can be guided by perceptions that are unconscious."

(Carruthers, Peter. Human and Animal Minds: The Consciousness Questions Laid to Rest. New York: Oxford University Press, 2019. p. 68)

(By "unconscious" he means "phenomenally unconscious".)

Since the Ascending Reticular Acrivating System (ARAS) is located at the brain stem and its known for its role in our conscious state , its not surprising at all that such cases can display conscious behavior.

The following paper explains our early understanding of the role of this brain module in conscious awareness of our environment and mental stimuli.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3722571/

Two papers published today in Science find birds actually have a brain that is much more similar to our complex primate organ than previously thought. For years it was assumed that the avian brain was limited in function because it lacked a neocortex. In mammals, the neocortex is the hulking, evolutionarily modern outer layer of the brain that allows for complex cognition and creativity and that makes up most of what, in vertebrates as a whole, is called the pallium. The new findings show that birds’ do, in fact, have a brain structure that is comparable to the neocortex despite taking a different shape. It turns out that at a cellular level, the brain region is laid out much like the mammal cortex, explaining why many birds exhibit advanced behaviors and abilities that have long befuddled scientists. The new work even suggests that certain birds demonstrate some degree of consciousness.

Sy Borg wrote: ↑May 30th, 2021, 8:38 pm All that science is very impressive but the fact remains that researchers have *no idea whatsoever* how consciousness comes about.

I repeat - no one has the slightest idea how consciousness comes about. There are many impressive guesses, and they are all just that - guesses. IIT seems promising, but the configurations needed to "turn on the lights" is unknown. By that, I mean completely unknown.

If you gave any researcher the brief to create a conscious mind, the honest ones would have no idea where to start and the rest would construct a machine that imitates the responses of animals, that pretends to be conscious.

The example was obviously a case of brain plasticity. It's not as though the brain stem is normally responsible for speech. New structures clearly emerges, enabling the baby to (at least) parrot the word "Mummy". I am also open to the idea that other structures can perform equivalent functions of the brain in simple organisms. Not so long ago it was believed that birds lacked the cognition of mammals due to a lack of a cerebral cortex. It never occurred to anyone form many years that the pallium would perform the same function.

Two papers published today in Science find birds actually have a brain that is much more similar to our complex primate organ than previously thought. For years it was assumed that the avian brain was limited in function because it lacked a neocortex. In mammals, the neocortex is the hulking, evolutionarily modern outer layer of the brain that allows for complex cognition and creativity and that makes up most of what, in vertebrates as a whole, is called the pallium. The new findings show that birds’ do, in fact, have a brain structure that is comparable to the neocortex despite taking a different shape. It turns out that at a cellular level, the brain region is laid out much like the mammal cortex, explaining why many birds exhibit advanced behaviors and abilities that have long befuddled scientists. The new work even suggests that certain birds demonstrate some degree of consciousness.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... e-thought/

popeye1945 wrote: ↑May 31st, 2021, 2:54 am Personally, I believe the whole body is consciousness, the body produced the brain the brain did not produce the body. The brain is a secondary organ in serves to the body. If one is looking for the origins of consciousness it is a really good idea to look to the body. How did the community of organisms work together to affect a mind? I think what one is looking at is a community consciousness affecting a centre of organization which we call the brain. It a community project.